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waynebergman
11-11-2014, 12:46 PM
I am well on my way for fabricating up my tadpole project. As this is my first post I see I can not post attachments yet so I will wait for that privelege and then post my progress to date.

I have a question regarding the Ackerman steering. Because I have altered my track width and wheel base length to rear wheel I just want to make sure I have the hole placement on the little "control arms" in the correct place. My wheel base is slightly longer than the plans suggest and also my track is at 32" so that is a bit wider.

My best guess is if I draw a straight line from the king pin centers to the center of the rear drop outs (at the axle) and then take this line I have drawn and mark its path along the center of the control arms I should have the location of the hole center for my connecting rods?

Thanks in advance.....wayne

waynebergman
11-11-2014, 12:50 PM
I think my post yesterday was deleted? Does this mean I have crossed the line in describing details of the plans I purchased? I tried to word the post as to not to give away any of the details in the warrior plans but not sure if my question was actually deleted or I just could not find it for some reason so I have posted it again here.

darnthedog
11-11-2014, 01:20 PM
Wayne
Welcome to the Group. I only see you posting twice today. So I am unsure if your posting even posted the first time.
As to photos we love them and there are no restrictions to getting them posted but they have to be posted per the posting photo information tab at the top. They have to be posted via link to a photo site. The forums speed and ability to host becomes overburden for this site carried by Brad and Kat.

As to your question. Length and width should not affect the Ackerman. Just need to lengthen the controlling rods to the reach. That is if you followed the plans which allow for the extended lengths.
The most important angles are set up with the heights measure. If you followed the height measurement from your tail bone to where it becomes level then the head tube and cross boom mounting then the resst will fall into place.

Hope that helps.

Twinkle
11-11-2014, 01:23 PM
I am well on my way for fabricating up my tadpole project. As this is my first post I see I can not post attachments yet so I will wait for that privelege and then post my progress to date.

I have a question regarding the Ackerman steering. Because I have altered my track width and wheel base length to rear wheel I just want to make sure I have the hole placement on the little "control arms" in the correct place. My wheel base is slightly longer than the plans suggest and also my track is at 32" so that is a bit wider.

My best guess is if I draw a straight line from the king pin centers to the center of the rear drop outs (at the axle) and then take this line I have drawn and mark its path along the center of the control arms I should have the location of the hole center for my connecting rods?

Thanks in advance.....wayne

That is correct .

welcome to the forum

to attach photos follow the"posting photos" tab at the top right of centre on the forum pages .

As the server is getting slow the hosting of photos is via photo hosting servers

regards and look forward to photos

emma

waynebergman
11-12-2014, 01:47 AM
https://plus.google.com/photos/111663165926176456456/albums/5156228543243913009/6078320121303382434?banner=pwa&pid=6078320121303382434&oid=111663165926176456456

At this point use the left arrows to scroll through the build process if you are interested in seeing my build progress from the link above. Thanks emma and darnthedog.

darnthedog
11-12-2014, 06:37 AM
Nice looking trike you got going there Wayne.
As shiny as that is I'd like to ask did you use Aluminum? It looks great. i have been considering aluminum for a project but have not tried it yet. I have a Tig capable. But have not attempted to Tig Aluminum yet. Actually I have barely Tig'd steel yet. So I look forward to the rest of the build and ride report. Looks to be a Warrior/streetfox hybrid. So nice job.

FlatBlack
11-12-2014, 11:54 AM
Lots of interesting projects Wayne, really like the vintage radio.

Cheers,
Bill

waynebergman
11-13-2014, 01:51 AM
Yes darnthedog the frame is aluminum. I stuck with steel for the steer tubes and crowns but most of the bike will be made out of aluminum 6061. I like aluminum because its easy to cut and you dont have to paint it.

Yes Bill that radio is an old friend. I have a photo of me standing next to it in my diapers. I am guessing it wont be long and I will be next to it in diapers again. That radio just might out live us both. .....wayne

FrankCrank
11-13-2014, 07:23 AM
Hi Wayne,

Looking very good so far - don't see many attempts in aly by homebuild hackers.

I have a TIG welder also (DC only - no aly for me), and like to build stuff in stainless. TIG sure is good for bike type builds - shame others here don't get a chance to have a go with it.

A quick look on Wiki tells me 6061 loses around 80 percent of its strength in the weld area - so can I ask you about heat treatment - is it something you'll consider when completed - just curious :surprised:

flat
11-13-2014, 12:09 PM
If I'm still here by next year, I'll definitely do my best to acquire an affordable TIG welder for that stack of dimes look you have going Frank.

I'd like an ALU option, if the cash flow deepens (at least for non-structural welding) which unfortunately does not seem to include many AZ bike welds. There are lots of archive threads exploring, then dismissing it due to the expense of heat treating. My area has some factories and shops who do structural ALU welding. Maybe one of them could accept our parts and heat treat them for a reasonable fee.

OTOH, total weight for Brad's Warrior was around 45 pounds. Although I haven't looked into it, it's possible that wheels and components make up much of that weight, leaving less of an advantage for using ALU over 1/16-inch steel. Anyone have the comparison facts?

I do like it though, Wayne, and understand your reasons for using ALU are not all about weight savings, but you (me too) like its looks, the workability it, and a surface that doesn't need painting if not subjected to uber-nasty elements. :rockon:

FrankCrank
11-13-2014, 07:51 PM
....I've heard that the low bake used during powder coating puts the strength back, but OP has said one reason for using aly is that it doesn't need painting, catch-22 I guess........

LongRider
11-13-2014, 09:28 PM
Unfortunately heat treating of Ali is a long laborious process meaning it takes many hours of high temps after which the part drops out of the bottom of the oven into a bath of glycol -- some use water but this tends to warp the part. Glycol for some reason cools the ali just a tad slower and reduces (but not eliminates) the chance for warpage. It is definitely not something that a powder coater or home enthusiast could ever do.

LongRider
11-13-2014, 09:56 PM
OTOH, total weight for Brad's Warrior was around 45 pounds. Although I haven't looked into it, it's possible that wheels and components make up much of that weight, leaving less of an advantage for using ALU over 1/16-inch steel. Anyone have the comparison facts?


I built acouple DeltaWolves out of ali and really enjoyed the process and learned a lot but have settled on ChroMoly as my metal of choice. Sure ali is lighter in weight but one needs to use twice the thickness of steel to get the strength needed thereby somewhat negating an weight savings. Ali is subject to stress fractures -- specially if not properly heat treated and imo if someone builds out of ali and does not heat treat, it is not "if" a catastrophic accident will be in your future but WHEN. I had 3 frames professionally heat treated 5-10 years ago for $550. Sure that is big bucks but I always use a very simple calculus = Is not doing (fill in the blank) going to be potentially worth my life?

I also just spent over $200 on a bike tail light -- the world's best bar none. DesignShine produces up to 800 in your face try to ignore this daylight red light lumens. Check it out at:
http://store.designshinelighting.com/

FrankCrank
11-14-2014, 04:53 AM
...easy to see why most hackers, including me, shy away from the stuff as a material for frame building. Have no doubt I could build a half decent, lightweight frame, but that's the easy bit. Getting it back to where it's stable and strong seems to be the major hassle, especially if a powder-coat low bake doesn't cut the mustard. In my time on here, seen a few started threads on using aly for a build, but they seem to just fizzle out - makes you wonder what went wrong :(

None of this is meant as discouragement to the OP or others, but knowing the pitfalls and how to get round them would be a shrewd approach :)

waynebergman
11-14-2014, 11:54 AM
Thanks for the heat treating info. I realize I am taking my chances with not going the heat treating route. I plan to examine the weld areas carefully and often after the bike is up and running. One thing I will mention is I am only 135lbs and I will keep a close eye on things.

LongRider
11-14-2014, 12:39 PM
More ali info: Any welding of ali totally negates any tensile strength rating it may have had. Meaning if you are using 6061T6, after the weld the ali in the area of the weld has a tensile strength of T0 (ZERO)! Of course basic ali has enough strength by itself (if used in enough thickness -- minimum 1/8 inch, .125) to support a rider for a while but T0 is a lot less strong than T6 and 6061T6 is a lot less strong than basic steel or ChroMoly.

darnthedog
11-14-2014, 02:19 PM
I was attempting to read up about this heat treating last night. On one of the websites I was reading- This proffesional bicycle builder mentioned that when using 6061-T6 Aluminum it is 11 times stronger than T0 and that T0 was 6 times stronger than he needed for the calculated flex that his engineers determine the bicycle would need. So he found the heat treatment unnessary. I wished I had bookmarked it but I was tired. I don't know how true this is. Just something I read.
Heat treatment to get to T4 from T0 is to heat to 1000 degrees for an hour then rapid cool to room temp in either Water spray or Gylcoh bath. Then to get to T6 the parts have to be heated to 400 degrees for 18 hours and then naturally cooled. The parts have to be mounted to a jig in both heat processes to maintain alignment. Otherwise the parts just distort. That is the gist of heat treatment. And from the reading the heat from welding lines up the molocules in the metal which makes is crack easily. And the heat treating causes the molecules to become un-aligned thus preventing cracking. Another interesting thing I was reading is that the 400 degree treatment is call artifically aging. Unsure how long it takes but apparently the aluminum will over time harden to a T6 level on its own from a T4 hardening. Don't know if T0 hardens on its own as well.


I decide to Check out Chromoly- But there is no difference in weight between 16 gauge Chromoly and 16 gauge mild steel. But supposedly with the stiffness of Chromoly you can reduce the gauge. So I started looking. And so far have not found a source. Mr. Wonder mentioned a suppler in North Phoenix but I have yet to contact them. My big question that I have not figured out how thin of Chromoly can one go to match the strength of mild steel of 16 gauge. The same question applied to Stainless but from looking it appears Stainless has similar strength to mild steel in the Flex and hardness. However there in no iron in to to make it oxidize. So if you don't want to paint it is good stuff as well.

My particular goal is weight reduction of a Streetfox style trike. Not sure how to do it yet. But I am still reading. :)

LongRider
11-14-2014, 04:09 PM
6061-T6 Aluminum it is 11 times stronger than T0

Unsure how long it takes but apparently the aluminum will over time harden to a T6 level on its own from a T4 hardening. Don't know if T0 hardens on its own as well.


I decide to Check out Chromoly- And so far have not found a source.

My big question that I have not figured out how thin of Chromoly can one go to match the strength of mild steel of 16 gauge.
:)

Sorry to burst bubbles but no metal gets stronger over time -- ali does not sit there and increase tensile strength over time. What it does over time is increase its brittleness and increase its chances of a stress fracture. Imho the "professional" bike builder is just trying to justify cutting corners and manufacturing costs.

Here are some sources for ChroMo:
http://secure.chassisshop.com/partlist/5918/
http://aedmotorsport/catalog/product/4130-round-tube
Even Amazon sells the stuff

Bachetta uses .035 on the 2.25 diameter main tube on their hi racer stick bikes. I used .049 1.5 inch diameter tube for my ChroMo trkes with great success. I am 95% done and they weigh 32 pounds. That's a touch over 14.5 kilos!

FrankCrank
11-16-2014, 06:34 AM
...great that this subject is getting some exposure on here again - wish I knew what happened to all the other aly projects some ways back in the past on here. The more info and experiences that are shared the better for us hackers.

No secret that my preference is for stainless, and I have 'cut corners' in that I didn't use back purging for any of my welds - a calculated risk I'm prepared to take. If someone here builds a project in aly without any post heat treatment, and it proves successful, then it can only encourage others.

Myth-busting may be a better way to see all of this. One that I recently witnessed was large wheels on a trike. Perceived wisdom is that this was a no-no, but have been convinced now it is doable, and has many advantages.

I've heard of some grades of aly that don't require heat treatment, maybe someone knows of this, or maybe just too exotic and expensive. Anyways, all grist to the mill for me, and I'm sure for others too........

flat
11-16-2014, 09:58 AM
Reinforce the frame welds with al plates and bolts. Sleeve and bolt welded joints if possible. Welding a joint before reinforcing it probably isn't necessary though, but it may help with loose joints, rattling apart or out of alignment. But the frame, beyond the weld area might be weak from the untreated al.

Also look into rectangular shaped tubing. Lastly up the wall thickness or cross section dimensions.

It's been successfully done and presented on other websites.

darnthedog
11-16-2014, 11:55 AM
Sorry to burst bubbles but no metal gets stronger over time -- ali does not sit there and increase tensile strength over time. What it does over time is increase its brittleness and increase its chances of a stress fracture. Imho the "professional" bike builder is just trying to justify cutting corners and manufacturing costs.

Here are some sources for ChroMo:
http://secure.chassisshop.com/partlist/5918/
http://aedmotorsport/catalog/product/4130-round-tube
Even Amazon sells the stuff

Bachetta uses .035 on the 2.25 diameter main tube on their hi racer stick bikes. I used .049 1.5 inch diameter tube for my ChroMo trkes with great success. I am 95% done and they weigh 32 pounds. That's a touch over 14.5 kilos!

Thanks for the links.

If ALi does not harden with age- Why is it that they refer to T6 tempering as Artificial Aging from T4? I saw this reference from Lincoln-Miller- and several other website referring to tempering Aluminum to a T6 hardness. The hardness is referring to Rockwell hardness testing from what I read. Not attempting to argue here- I am trying to gain understanding of what I am reading verse what your saying.

My factory uses a Rockwell type test to see how hard the solder post stick to substrates. They scrap the post off and that is what they measure is how hard it is to remove. If too low they scrap the material. This is a combination of silicon- Tungsten and copper with a Lead/ Tin over the top. I do not pretend to understand it all. Just explaining the process they go through.

At this point I have enough links to purchase the Chromoly in near future and figure out how to Tig it. Again thanks for the Education. From what I have read on the Chromoly I believe need to use 70-S filler rod to Tig it.

LongRider
11-16-2014, 02:21 PM
I agree no arguments here, just digital conversation : )
Non heat treated Ali does "harden" with time but not in strength. Because the molecules have been so arranged by the act of welding, the "hardening" that takes place over time is actually the increase in brittleness so that the area of the weld loses its ability to withstand the stresses and will more likely shear than bend when the weld finally fails.

Yup, 70-S is the one.