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Jaay
09-30-2013, 03:10 PM
Hey all, well if started the warrior this weekend. I've pretty much done the rear fork section but I'm struggling to get a nice weld down the inside sections the inverted corners. Any advice?

Tradetek
09-30-2013, 04:59 PM
Post a picture of the joint you are having trouble with, and indicate if you are doing the following:
Vertical - Up (push) or Down (pull)
Horizontal - push or pull technique

Also, let us know the following:
Welding rod you are using
Welding you are using
DC+ or DC- or AC
AMP settings
Tube wall thickness

With all of this info, someone should be able to give you some decent advice.

Bill

Jaay
10-01-2013, 03:34 AM
Hi, its these inside corner joints i have some trouble with. I use a really old arc/stick welder and 1.6mm rods (1/16 i think) the box section is 1 1/2-16swg. Im ok on the outside edges its just these inside ones. id normally just do a weld on each side and join them in the middle but id like to know how to do a neater weld in this place. My welder dosnt have any numbers on it but ive used it for years on all sorts of metal and get a good penetrative weld most of the time, just not in these corners. And i tend to push up when welding in these joints but pull on others? im weird ;)

photo.JPG

Jaay
10-01-2013, 03:45 AM
Pics

http://s5.postimg.org/xf5e6357n/IMG_0214.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/xf5e6357n/) http://s5.postimg.org/x3nxtborn/IMG_0215.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/x3nxtborn/)

stormbird
10-01-2013, 03:52 AM
Jaay

Sorry I can't help , even thought I live a spit away I TIG weld my stuff.

When I have welding problems I go to this forum :-

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=23

Although it is called mig-welding it covers all types of welding and it is UK based so if they recommend something it is in English terms and UK stores etc

The usual mantra applies , practice , practice oh and practice.

You don't show pictures of your failed welds , so the more knowledgeable folks can advise ?

I posted some pictures on that site of some TIG I was having problems with and it was like someone could see my whole life history in about 4" of weld ! very spooky

good luck Paul

Tradetek
10-01-2013, 09:49 AM
Yep, the pure welding sites are great to go to because they are mainly frequented by pros. The one we have here, weldingweb.com so much so that it is hard to find the welding info sometimes because it is a lot of banter between the welders about stuff that has nothing to do with welding! But so far they have always been helpful as long as you give them as much info as possible.

On youtube, there is a guy named "chucke2009" who does a LOT of stick welding videos. I'd recommend checking his channel out. From what I have seen and done myself, putting the electrode 45 degrees from the material and pulling is the normal method when possible. Also, it looks like your tack welds are a bit short for stick and it doesn't look like you are going with the seam, it looks like you are going at the seam from the side, but that could just be the way it looks in a pic.

It would be good to see a failed weld on some scrap though to get a better understanding of what your struggles look like.

Also, the standard practice with stick is to do the first weld along the seam and then if necessary build up the weld on each side of the first weld and then if necessary stitch them together with a final bead. I doubt that is all necessary with this thin material though.

Hopefully Brad will chime in though as he is the stick guru for these builds since all the plans are developed by him using stick.

Bill

ChadClancy
10-01-2013, 12:08 PM
Once you get things tacked together well, I would position the piece so you are doing a horizontal weld like you are just laying a bead in the V of the inside corner joint. Keep the rod at an angle of about 45 degrees to the joint line and drag.

What requires finesse is that you want to move just slow enough that you get full penetration of the weld but not so slow that you burn a hole. The resulting weld bead should be flat or slightly concave in this type of joint if you have your machine settings right and are moving at the correct speed. I would practice this type of weld on some scrap until you get it just right.

The type of electrode you are using also can make a huge difference. Some electrodes are much more user friendly than others and it is not just the AWS type designation that counts as one brand of the same type can act much differently than another brand. For 1/16" electrodes, my latest favorite is actually the Harbor Freight branded ones. These produce a nice weld in multiple positions and the slag removal is fairly easy.

If you post some more pics of some practice welds we can critique them and let you know if they look like you have things set up to do your final attempts.

Jaay
10-02-2013, 11:33 AM
Couple of great points, I of always start my weld to one side and drag it across. Great spot. Would most use a 2mm rod on this work?

ChadClancy
10-02-2013, 03:42 PM
My general rule of thumb is don't use an electrode with a diameter larger than the thickness of the material being welded so for 2mm thick steel 1/16" is your best bet. For critical joints where you do a second pass you could go up to 3/32 on the second pass.

Also try to re-melt your tacks when you go over them to get a good continuous weld.

Tradetek
10-02-2013, 06:55 PM
Also you want to make sure that you have the amps set high enough to burn off the flux so that it rises to the top of the weld and does not get "included" (stuck) in the weld.

Bill

grburnett
10-02-2013, 08:56 PM
chadclancy gives good advice, but I will try to politely one-up him a bit.
Try to orient the pieces so that you are welding down into the bottom of the "V" formed by them.
This is would qualify as a flat weld and is even easier than the horizontal with one side going up.
I don't know if you will be able to get at things or not, but if you can it should work as well as things can.
If you can, continuous beads across the width would be best.
A triple pass won't hurt anything at all.

ChadClancy
10-02-2013, 09:52 PM
Agreed. I meant to say flat rather than horizontal.

Jaay
10-08-2013, 11:43 AM
ok t my top welds are ok, im pretty please with them. but this fillet weld is proving a bit of a pain. ive got these pictures so you can see my attempts.

http://s5.postimg.org/64zqwfeoz/SDC15217.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/64zqwfeoz/) http://s5.postimg.org/9d489h0yr/SDC15218.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/9d489h0yr/) http://s5.postimg.org/d6xoimiar/SDC15219.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/d6xoimiar/)

TexasTuff
10-08-2013, 12:07 PM
Jaay, get your hand on a couple of sticks of LH-70 rods and see how they work for you. They have a very thick flux. Strike an arc and adjust the angle of the rod to the burn rate you want. No moving the rod about. Just rest it on the flux and let it burn itself. They are not good for overhead at all and difficult for vertical welds but work great on flat welds. Most of our welds we can move the frame to get a flat weld. They leave a lot of flux on the weld but it chips away easily.

ChadClancy
10-08-2013, 03:33 PM
Jaay
It is hard to evaluate your welds because you need to do a better job cleaning off the slag with a chipping hammer and wire brush so we can see what's underneath. That said, from what I can see they don't look too good. I would suggest working on similar joint configurations with scrap until you get what you want. There are lots of permutations of the important variables that go into making a good weld so it is best to practice and fine tune until you get things right. The type of electrode is one of those things and some are much more forgiving than others.

One of the problems you'll run into in choosing good electrodes is that the selection available in 1/16" diameter is fairly limited. There are some electrodes that I prefer but I can't get them in diameters less than 3/32".

sandman
10-08-2013, 04:22 PM
Hi, its these inside corner joints i have some trouble with. I use a really old arc/stick welder and 1.6mm rods (1/16 i think) the box section is 1 1/2-16swg. Im ok on the outside edges its just these inside ones. id normally just do a weld on each side and join them in the middle but id like to know how to do a neater weld in this place. My welder dosnt have any numbers on it but ive used it for years on all sorts of metal and get a good penetrative weld most of the time, just not in these corners. And i tend to push up when welding in these joints but pull on others? im weird ;)

photo.JPG
try putting those old rods in an oven for couple of hours, the flux sucks moisture up like mad, makes a big difference
John

Jaay
10-08-2013, 04:36 PM
Really. In the oven? What temperature so I 'cook them' at

TexasTuff
10-08-2013, 11:38 PM
try putting those old rods in an oven for couple of hours, the flux sucks moisture up like mad, makes a big difference
John

We used to store our rods in an old refrigerator with a heat lamp inside. At least all the rods that were in open containers. You might find a smaller frig/container with a 100 W light bulb left on all the time.

MrIdaho
10-09-2013, 07:01 AM
I used to work for a school district and did a fair amount of ac stick welding. Using 6013 or 7014 rod was basically all we had and they were very easy to use. Come in various sizes. A rule of thumb as I understand it is use a rod that has same thickness as metal being welded.

ChadClancy
10-09-2013, 10:50 AM
For a beginner, I would shy away from trying to ressurect old , damp rods. So some types like 6013 do fine when damp but 7018 (LH-70) need to stay dry and might be resurrected by drying in an oven but perhaps not. 7018 is a good rod but hobbyists should probably stay away from them due to their rather rigid storage requirements.

Just remove bad rods as being a potential source of your problems by going out and buying a couple pounds of good 1/16" 6013 or 7014. Then you'll know if your problems are either a matter of your technique or machine settings.

Jaay
10-09-2013, 11:55 AM
Ok thanks I'll get some new rods. Just another question, when doing the fillet joint how should my rod be angled and placed (should it be dragged through the corner at 45degrees to each edge with a 10/20degree angle pulling towards me)

grburnett
10-09-2013, 06:56 PM
SOB!
I typed out a long reply and with some suggestions and lost it.
Frick!

TexasTuff
10-09-2013, 08:19 PM
SOB!
I typed out a long reply and with some suggestions and lost it.
Frick!

I'm sorry, I though Tradetek and I were the only ones to press the "Reply to Thread" at the bottom of the screen.

George

Tradetek
10-09-2013, 09:20 PM
Yes, it seems like the longer my reply the more likely I am to hit the dreaded "Reply to Thread" button... maybe it's a sign...?

farst1
10-10-2013, 04:58 AM
Stay away from low hydrogen rods. They're really are a cow to re-strike unless you chip the flux of the end. Bake you rods at 110c. You'll know if they've been wet, they will be covered in a powdery substance and they spit more then usual.
I us 2.5mm rod on 1.6mm material @ about 75 - 80 amps.
A tack should be small enough to weld over or large enough to be part of the weld.
Only my opinion.
Not Gospel.....but I've been a metal fabricator and welder for 30+ years.

Jaay
10-10-2013, 06:25 AM
Thanks farst1. So I should be ok with some good 2mm rods? 1.6mm are expensive? And what advice could you give for this fillet weld?

ChadClancy
10-10-2013, 08:17 AM
Stay away from low hydrogen rods. They're really are a cow to re-strike unless you chip the flux of the end. Bake you rods at 110c. You'll know if they've been wet, they will be covered in a powdery substance and they spit more then usual.
I us 2.5mm rod on 1.6mm material @ about 75 - 80 amps.
A tack should be small enough to weld over or large enough to be part of the weld.
Only my opinion.
Not Gospel.....but I've been a metal fabricator and welder for 30+ years.

I'm sure a pro welder has no problem welding the thin stuff with a 2.5 mm rod but most of us rookies would be making swiss cheese running something like that. For someone just starting out, I stick by my recommendation to keep the rod size down close to the thickness of the material being welded.

Jaay
10-15-2013, 09:57 AM
got some new rods 1.6mm, much better welds. but i am really struggling with these fillet welds???? its either one side or the other. i try to keep it at 45degrees with a 10/20 degree lean, ive tried it right in the corner of the joint and just enough away to sustain the arc. But as you can see IM RUBBISH. All my other welds are ok good penetration nice and even, but for some reason ive spent hours practicing everything else has come together nicely but these. Any help please.
http://s5.postimg.org/x30lu9pyf/SDC15581.jpg

trikeman
10-15-2013, 10:01 AM
Can you see the puddle when you weld? My old eyes always have trouble seeing the puddle when use my stick, which is probably why I like my oxy-acetylene rig so much. it looks like you are having trouble staying between the two sides. One weld bead is on the tube on the left, then it switches to the right one. Just on first glance, it also looks like you may need to crank up the heat a bit.

Jaay
10-15-2013, 10:09 AM
its the rod postion i struggle with, im not sure where it should be and what sort of angle. Does it need to be tucked right into the groove? like i say ive tried loads of ways but just not the right one yet.

trikeman
10-15-2013, 11:59 AM
You may not need as much weave from side to side as this video shows (because we are using some pretty thin metal), but this ancient video should show you about where you need to be on an inside corner weld and at what angle with a 6010 or 6011 rod. You do need to weave side to side enough to melt both sides, so you have to observe the melt carefully and adjust accordingly.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI4bGRqG4F4

sandman
10-15-2013, 04:36 PM
its the rod postion i struggle with, im not sure where it should be and what sort of angle. Does it need to be tucked right into the groove? like i say ive tried loads of ways but just not the right one yet.Hi Jaay will just say same as Trikeman add more amps, no need to weave the joint, just bisect the angle and drag back at about 20/40 degrees, not critical. if you can get some Fincord M rods they are an easy to use contact rod that you can push into the weld and they are easy striking and give a nice convex weld with easy slag removal, you know you got it right as the slag peels off as you weld, oh and mind the finish the slag flies off and its damned hot
regards
John

Tradetek
10-15-2013, 10:31 PM
I love those instructional cartoon bits from the 50's.

Jaay
10-16-2013, 03:21 AM
that video is great ;)

trikeman
10-16-2013, 08:08 AM
I bought the -->Wall Mountain welding videos<-- (http://www.weldingvideos.com/) (Arc Welding I&II) and they are very good, as well. They have some great views of what to look for in the puddle etc. He goes into a lot of detail on the various rods, how to weld inside and outside angles, etc etc, all with excellent photography of what you will see through the hood. Unfortunately they have been pirated and posted on YouTube. I contacted the author and he said it was a lost cause trying to stop the pirates and copyright violators, so I guess they will just stay on YT now, which means he isn't going to make any more.

ChadClancy
10-16-2013, 12:50 PM
I agree with trikeman that you probably need to crank up the amps a bit. You can clearly see that your weld bead starts on one side and then moves to the other.

Think of the tip of your electrode like a little nozzle spraying the metal. You need to make sure that the molten pool "washes" to both tubes and you do that by moving the arc from one side to the other and/or, changing the angle of the rod to push the pool to one side or the other. You have to get good at watching the pool and ignoring the sparks so you can see what is going on while you are welding rather than after the fact when you chip off the slag. Also, make sure that when you start the weld, you are getting the pool established on BOTH of the pieces you are joining such that the arc doesn't want to tend to the side with your ground clamp - it also helps get the puddle/bead established to the right size and profile.

The only other thing I can say is keep practicing on some scraps until you get it right. If you get good at welding this thin stuff, you'll be a pro stick welding thicker material which is much easier.

trikeman
10-16-2013, 06:10 PM
As Chad and everyone else is saying, you have to really watch that puddle and make sure you melting the base metal on both sides. Various sources use terms, such as wash, tie-in, wet, etc., but it all means the same thing - i.e. melting the base metal on both sides. New wire welders are especially prone to just squeezing out some molten wire on top of the base, but never really seeing that the base metal is melted. You can do it with a stick, as well. It takes a while to train your eye not to watch the arc, the smoke or the slag. Many new people also want to go too fast. As Chad said, make sure the width of the puddle you want is there before you move on, then keep it that wide, and don't worry at first about burning through.

grburnett
10-16-2013, 07:56 PM
What number rods did you get?

Jaay
10-19-2013, 12:36 PM
I got some 6013 1.6mm rods. I forget the name but I got them from a welder and they do make a big difference slag wise. Also the oven trick worked I baked my old rods and they worked loads better. I had a practise last week and I'm definitely getting better, got a week off next week so I hoping to do a little more practise then crack on.

grburnett
10-20-2013, 02:07 AM
Think about getting some 6014, 7014, and 7018.
Any of them will work for this just fine and you may have better luck with one or the other.
Sorry, I don't remember right off the top of my head, but one of the 70XX is kind of a pain to start but once running it is great and makes very nice welds.
Just get enough of them to try out and play with a bit.
The 6010 or 6011 will make suitable strength welds but they are hard to make look nice without a lot of practice.
They really work best where cosmetics are not all that important and you don't really want to spend the time prepping quit as well as you maybe should.

Tradetek
10-20-2013, 03:53 AM
7014 starts easy. It's what I've been using with my DC inverter when I run stick.

Note that it is the only thing I run. It was recommended to me by a welder because it is good for beginners and cleaner than 6013.

Bill

trikeman
10-20-2013, 08:31 AM
+1 on the 7014's. --->Several people in old threads<-- (http://forum.atomiczombie.com/showthread.php/918-Loving-Those-7014-s) here have tried stick with other rods and given up - until they tried 7014s. They melt like butter and you can drag them on the weld, so you don't even have to worry about the arc gap. The only thing I don't like about them is that they have a of of slag, so its almost impossible to see the puddle. Still worth a try for those who think they can't stick weld. Its a low light penetration rod, but on the 16ga (or sheet metal) steel we use, that is usually the least of your worries. I think 7014 is a great beginner rod. After using them many find that their confidence goes up enough that they can weld with the other rods too.

Tradetek
10-20-2013, 01:07 PM
I also found that as my experience with the 7014's has increased, so too has been my ability to see the puddle. I do find that I get slag in the top edges, but I think that is my lack of finesse vs a problem with the rods. For those in the US, I have been using the Hobart brand (I have heard that brand can make a difference with stick).

Bill

farst1
11-02-2013, 02:00 AM
Discovered this and thought thats some pretty handy advice. I'll fill the lads in. Hope it helps.
http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/articles/smaw-stick-arc-welding-tips-techniques/