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edspedalcars
07-16-2013, 06:50 PM
I need a shade canopy for the front of my workshop, and my welding confidence for 'safety critical' welds is still pretty low.
So I figured this would be a good time to practice some welding.

I need to extend a couple of tubes, by 2 feet and thought now would be a good time to practice using the, "Rose" weld technique. A form of spot welding.

It was here on AZ that I learned the name for this type of reinforcement/splicing of tubing. (Sorry, can't remember who, or can't which posts).

I used a similar 'tube-in-a-tube' reinforcement method for my PVC T bucket.
(I believe this method or similar method was shown to us by Sir Joey)

On the T bucket, I 'glued' the parts together, after slicing, lengthwise and heat molding to match the inner dimensions of the PVC tubes.

I used basically the same method, with the metal tube, except now they will be welded.

Here I have sliced approximately 3/8" from a 4"x1 1/8" OD EMT tube.
http://imageshack.us/scaled/medium/203/x69n.jpg

Here I'm slowly rotating and squeezing the tube down to 1" diameter. (The inside diameter of the outer tube)
http://imageshack.us/scaled/medium/7/jxcn.jpg

Splicing tube fits tight in the outer tube.
http://imageshack.us/scaled/medium/38/qvc.JPG

Drilling out 5/16" holes where the spot welds will be.
http://imageshack.us/scaled/medium/59/zysi.jpg

All three pieces, cleaned and positioned prior to welding.
(The sliced gap will be rotated about 1/4 turn before welding)
http://imageshack.us/scaled/medium/542/3drb.jpg

Left tube showing holes where welds will be.
Right tube shows how pieces will join, for welding.

A slight gap, +/- 1/16" will be maintained between the tube ends, for welding.
The ends have been bevelled slightly.
http://imageshack.us/scaled/medium/836/p2la.jpg

These builds usually require, (for novices) many hours of cutting, fitting, "redo', grinding, filling, 'redo', priming, painting, etc. http://forum.atomiczombie.com/images/smilies/sweatdrop.gif

I don't want the worry of all that time going for nothing, not to mention the embarrassment, of a broken weld out in, PUBLIC !!! http://forum.atomiczombie.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

This is not an absolute guarantee, but it sure helps towards my confidence level.
Knowing that if that weld does crack, that inner splice tube, will keep things together, until you can safely stop, or even get home.

The welding maybe tomorrow.

Enjoy
Ed

FrankCrank
07-16-2013, 08:55 PM
Hi Ed,

Fine looking fettling going on there. I believe it was me who proffered the name 'Rose Weld' for this type, but looks like no reference to it on the internet using that name. Suspect it may have been a name we used just in our workshop back then, but whatever - it's a good technique for joining tubes. Going to be doing something similar soon using stainless rectangular section, will post more on this when I get going on my mk2 trike build.

Cheers - Frank.

edspedalcars
07-16-2013, 09:40 PM
Hi Ed,

Fine looking fettling going on there. I believe it was me who proffered the name 'Rose Weld' for this type, but looks like no reference to it on the internet using that name. Suspect it may have been a name we used just in our workshop back then, but whatever - it's a good technique for joining tubes. Going to be doing something similar soon using stainless rectangular section, will post more on this when I get going on my mk2 trike build.

Cheers - Frank.

Hi there Frank

Yes I do believe it was you, but do you remember what the thread was we were discussing it on?

The reason we're having trouble finding any reference to "Rose" welding, is because it's actually called "Rosette"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-NV7rgy0hs

If you type in "rosette welds", you will find a lot of sites with info.(Check out the 'images', there's lots of examples)

I've just discovered this myself, so will be looking at those sites myself.

Thanks for updating me.

Ed

Ticktock
07-16-2013, 09:47 PM
Hi Ed,
The upload demon strikes again! Could not see the pics this time--just little black boxes. With or without the anti spy ware its the same, so the host country is not to blame!
I can tell from the description what you are doing--best way to join tubes under stress (the tube, or you, under stress) The welding trick is more com only known as a plug weld, or its half brother, if brazing, a plug braze. I have used this (plug weld) to extend trailer axles (illegal in most places, by the way) and done properly, it cannot be seen after painting, and is probably stronger than the original single tube. Any form of lap or plating over a weld reduces the chances of a fail considerably.
Steve G

FrankCrank
07-16-2013, 11:03 PM
...nice one Ed - mystery solved - thought I was having an early 'senior moment' :)

edspedalcars
07-17-2013, 12:36 PM
Rosette weld (Formerly known as 'Rose')

Temperature is a cool 68 degrees, no wind, bright sun. OK !, lets weld something!

Read a few posts about using PAM, for anti-spatter. I used it on my table top the last time I welded, and it worked really well.
This time I sprayed not only the tabletop, but also the angle iron used for holding the tube in place.
Was careful to not get any on or near the weld area. (The smell can make you hungry)

http://s23.postimg.org/is0h4olpn/rosette_welds_003.jpg

Lined up and secured
http://s21.postimg.org/ocl83noh3/rosette_welds_005.jpg

First go at welding the holes.
http://s15.postimg.org/lmueuitt7/rosette_welds_006.jpg

The holes are done and the ends welded
http://s21.postimg.org/9ofdpoucn/rosette_welds_010.jpg

First side after grinding, showing pockets still need welding.
I think I will put an edge on my chipping hammer and use a sliding motion to remove spatter. I
can't have those kinds of cosmetic markings on the final product. Or better yet, just cover the area's.

http://s23.postimg.org/dtm5hmwob/rosette_welds_014.jpg

Second side with same result and needed corrective action.
http://s13.postimg.org/lbj0sk92f/rosette_welds_015.jpg

Overall the experiment went well. I had a little problem with wire speed and spitting, this time.

But I think I achieved my goal of preparing a splice and how to weld it in.

I will be using the same method when I use square tubing. Especially on the angled joints.
At least until I get more experience and confidence in my finished welds.

All that remains to be done is, touchup welding, grinding, and then, apply, THE BIG HAMMER !

The destruct test results later.

Enjoy

Ed

Ticktock
07-17-2013, 01:00 PM
There must be a minor problem here between English English, American English and Australian English! I speak or at least understand , two of these (your guess) and in the two I know ita a plug weld! Makes you wonder where the world is going ---all this confusion .
Think this is bad--try the clock/ watch world, where English names for parts and American names for parts will get totally different parts ! Like a pair of meshing wheels having reversed names . That can get a bit confusing.
In my world its a plug weld, and it works just as well as a rose weld, or a rosette weld, but its a plug weld!
All in fun,
Steve G

edspedalcars
07-17-2013, 01:39 PM
There must be a minor problem here between English English, American English and Australian English! I speak or at least understand , two of these (your guess) and in the two I know ita a plug weld! Makes you wonder where the world is going ---all this confusion .
Think this is bad--try the clock/ watch world, where English names for parts and American names for parts will get totally different parts ! Like a pair of meshing wheels having reversed names . That can get a bit confusing.
In my world its a plug weld, and it works just as well as a rose weld, or a rosette weld, but its a plug weld!
All in fun,
Steve G

You are quite right Steve, it 'is' a plug weld, or a slot weld, or a spot weld.

We're all talking, English. You say tomato, I say tomawto !, type of english.

Now for the stress test results.

Ed

edspedalcars
07-17-2013, 02:09 PM
Hammer stress test !

Not really a hammer test, as I injured my 'hammer hand' in a fall yesterday.

So the alternative was to use my pipe bender, to see if I could break the joint.

Just to show that PAM works pretty good. Just wiped the spatter of with a paper towel.

http://s7.postimg.org/k1nbm6q0b/rosette_stress_test_002.jpg

Touchup welds done and ground smooth
http://s9.postimg.org/l2mtoddin/rosette_stress_test_003.jpg

Set in tube bender. Markings are for 'analytical data', upon completion of test.
http://s13.postimg.org/xfdnp8s87/rosette_stress_test_004.jpg

The only tube I had, (10 ' fence top rail) to start the test. Later found a much shorter one.
http://s18.postimg.org/cv7g4pxq1/rosette_stress_test_005.jpg

A resounding success, IMHO. The reinforced area and welds showed no adverse signs of destruction.

A bit of misalignment was noticed, even though I had it clamped into the angle iron.

Reason....? ... There was 'give' in the spring clamps. (Will use vise clamps next time)
Or ................ to much heat on one side.
(Should have welded one hole, then turned and
welded one hole, then repeated.)

I tried to do that with the joint line.

http://s21.postimg.org/vt2wvyi7b/rosette_stress_test_006.jpg

Now if only my, tire tubes would get here, and my pillow blocks arrive today, like their supposed to.

Enjoy

Ed

FrankCrank
07-17-2013, 08:47 PM
...from the look of those welds, or spatter to be precise :), I'd say you've got a flux-core type machine there. No arguing with your strength test - proves that they hold up under extreme duress!

What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet (William Shakespeare) :artist:

Ticktock
07-17-2013, 08:51 PM
At least we can understand each other's English. Half the of the English I hear here is a bit hard to understand!
Steve

janetf
07-19-2013, 08:49 AM
I'm fond of making some brick-a-bracks like funny figures, small boxes and flowers using metal. I learned the basics of welding from this article http://www.askwiki.net/How-to-Weld. However I need to weld the water pipe. What background current is used for welding aluminum? What do you think about this tutorial http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/aluminium-welding.htm?

darnthedog
07-19-2013, 11:59 AM
I'm fond of making some brick-a-bracks like funny figures, small boxes and flowers using metal. I learned the basics of welding from this article http://www.askwiki.net/How-to-Weld. However I need to weld the water pipe. What background current is used for welding aluminum? What do you think about this tutorial http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/aluminium-welding.htm?

It really depends on you- your equipment at hand-and what your really looking to do. Water pipe it depends on your local code of course but a silver sodier is what I use above ground using mapp gas (Yellow bottle from Lowes,Home Depot, Ace, or True Value). If underground the only approved method in my area is Brazing the pipe which requires Acetelyene/Oxygen torch. Tig will do a very nice job too. But in my town your actually not supposted to have any connections underground if possible. Hope that helps. Oh and the stores I mentioned can tell you the code for your town as to what you can used to work with water pipe.

FYI: This only applies to Copper water pipe- Cast iron, Galvanized piped are usually threaded pipes not welded or brazed, PVC is Glued. PEX is clamped.

As to Aluminum- many websites try to push aluminum with a spool gun if your using Mig. And there is an Aluminum Stick for Arc welding, but most articles agree if you really want to do aluminum well use Tig with Straight Argon. And if your beyond your Welders capabilities the mix a bit of helium with it to go beyond your welders limits. I follow Welddotcom Youtube videos and Welding tip and tricks .com to learn about aluminum welding. And mentioned in the second tuturial you listed the guy switch to Tig because it was too much trouble to get a good weld any other way.

Tradetek
07-19-2013, 10:15 PM
Where do you live that you have aluminum water pipes? Never heard of using aluminum for water pipes... PVC, Cast Iron, Copper and flexible tube, but never aluminum.

Ticktock
07-20-2013, 08:27 AM
I am not aware of any use of aluminium for water pipes. It helps to cause that desaease that affects the memory--cant remember the name right now--if I don't forget, I will check it tomorrow.
If you really mean to weld the water pipe, is probably galvanised iron. Catch here is that many of the screw fittings for these pipes are cast iron, and that does not weld easily.
Steve G
Beijing

dkerrivan
07-20-2013, 09:17 AM
Ticktock, I believe the word you are looking for is Alzheimer's.

At least one type of Pex pipe is aluminum, jacketted on both sides by a PVC coating. It is readily apparent when you cut the stuff, but the PVC coating renders it safe to use as a mechanical barrier between water and Al.

DK

Sent from my HTC EVO 3D X515a using Tapatalk 4 Beta

farst1
07-21-2013, 09:10 AM
I'm fond of making some brick-a-bracks like funny figures, small boxes and flowers using metal. I learned the basics of welding from this article http://www.askwiki.net/How-to-Weld. However I need to weld the water pipe. What background current is used for welding aluminum? What do you think about this tutorial http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/aluminium-welding.htm?

Unless your proficient at welding I wouldn't try welding aluminium. I'm a welder by trade and have been welding aluminum for over a decade . It would be one of most difficult metals to weld properly . Amps are usually 25% higher whether using mig or tig, rate of travel is faster. While Ali mig welding can be done with any decent mig, aluminium tig requires a welding machine with high frequency abilities(used for striking an arc). Its not something I'd recommend for the average backyard welder.

The welding technique described is called plug welding.

The weld spatter if it gasless could be remedied by switching the cables over if not already done. If not then try turning your wire speed down or your heat up.
Not Gospel only my opinion.

Ticktock
07-21-2013, 09:17 AM
Hi,
Why was I looking for that word?---can't remember what it means anyway!
Even this pipe should not be welded, as the PVC barrier would be destroyed, back to the contamination problem , if you can remember!
Steve G

dkerrivan
07-21-2013, 10:10 AM
Heh, fun playing straight man to the 'bent one half a world away...

DK

Sent from my HTC EVO 3D X515a using Tapatalk 4 Beta

Tradetek
07-22-2013, 10:19 AM
Uh oh Farst1... now that we know there is a pro welder on lurking you will probably see an increase in the "help with my weld's" or "diagnose my welds" questions ;)

Ticktock
07-22-2013, 10:26 AM
I suppose almost any where else that I'm likely to get a meaning full reply to that humor would be about half a world from here, in any direction! Its about the same distance to UK, USA or Australia (I said about, so don't rush for Google maps!) .
I feel more important now, having realised I am at the hyperthetical center of the civilised world!
Now what were we talking about earlier????
Steve G