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bluemax
01-03-2013, 10:00 AM
I have the frame welded up and am proceeding with the bottom crank brackets, etc. Chose to go with 24" rear wheels and 20" front. After making my second mistake of logging onto Endless Sphere, (the first was discovering the "Atomic Zombies":rolleyes4:) [just kidding guys, you are a real treasure] I have decided to add electric power to assist with hills and when we're way out there and get tired. However, I am not sure which would be best for the Kyoto. I researched a bunch and am thinking of a geared front wheel hub type called MAC. I don't like the idea of the drag of a direct drive hub motor.
Anyhow, I noticed on "The Sphere" that, mention was made of a "Cromotor V2" and that it might be related to the Zombies somehow. Are the Zombies going to offer these up for sale?
My main concern (other than the wickedly expensive LiFePo4 batteries) is whether or not a 500/1000 watt MAC geared motor will work OK with two people on board. I weigh 175 and my wife is about 130 something which gives us a total of a little over 300 lbs. I'm not looking for stump pulling/hill climbing super torque, just an assist with mild hills and maybe a little extra cruising help.
Has anyone powered up a Kyoto? Thanks.

Radical Brad
01-03-2013, 11:49 AM
If you have the extra $$$, a brushless hubmotor is the best choice. I ran a 500 watt (overvolted from 36v to 48v) on my Kyoto and it would blast 2 people and cargo up a huge hill without any problems at all. I also find Lipo to be not worth the cost, which is why I just use big ole reliable and powerful gel batteries (wheelchair batteries). For about $300, you can build a HUGE 48v pack that will run all day and last 5 years.

Brad

bluemax
01-04-2013, 06:41 AM
Brad, that"s great news on the power/torque you are getting with your setup! Are you saying a direct drive or geared hub motor? I was hoping to avoid the drag caused by the direct drive and go with a 500 watt geared MAC motor. Also, the gel wheelchair batteries are more my price range but, what about the controller? EM3ev in Hong Kong sells the motor and controllers, etc. at a good price and I wonder if a controller which is intended for LiFePo4 batteries will be ok to use with a gel type? Your comments are much appreciated.

Radical Brad
01-04-2013, 02:50 PM
Unless I am mistaken, the drag will be many more times worse on a geared motor. A brush less motor has no friction minus the axle bearings. And unless the game has changed with new technology, a battery is a battery. I mean, 30 amp hours at 36 volts will be the same to the controller no matter if it's lead acid, Lipo, or 10 million potatoes and copper strips! Your maximum potential is less with lead acid, but I doubt a 1000watt hubmotor will ever need more than either can supply at any given time.

Brad

socialtalker
01-04-2013, 03:42 PM
how much does this gel battery pack weigh altogether?


If you have the extra $$$, a brushless hubmotor is the best choice. I ran a 500 watt (overvolted from 36v to 48v) on my Kyoto and it would blast 2 people and cargo up a huge hill without any problems at all. I also find Lipo to be not worth the cost, which is why I just use big ole reliable and powerful gel batteries (wheelchair batteries). For about $300, you can build a HUGE 48v pack that will run all day and last 5 years.

Brad

darnthedog
01-04-2013, 04:08 PM
Checking the Wheel chair rated batteries gives a various answer to 25 to 30 lb per battery depending on the make. So figure 75 to 100 pounds or or 34 to 45 Kg. for a 36v 35 Ahr pack. Just a quick google search. Hope that helps. Not sure of What Ahr- Brad was pushing. Pricing was all over the place for the same rated batteries depending on manufactor and distributor.

river
01-04-2013, 05:50 PM
Unless I am mistaken, the drag will be many more times worse on a geared motor. A brush less motor has no friction minus the axle bearings. And unless the game has changed with new technology, a battery is a battery. I mean, 30 amp hours at 36 volts will be the same to the controller no matter if it's lead acid, Lipo, or 10 million potatoes and copper strips! Your maximum potential is less with lead acid, but I doubt a 1000watt hubmotor will ever need more than either can supply at any given time.

Brad

There is no drag at all on a geared hub. A direct drive bub will have the drag from the magnets. The more powerful the magnets the more the drag. On my amp hub 800 watts bearly any drag. on my Hs3540 hub which is allot more power with more powerful magnets, allot more but not that bad. I use most of mine for just a assist when i get tired or on hills, that why i love the lipo batteries . very light and powerful. and last allot longer, keeps the weight down. Most people start out with lead acid batteries but end up with lipo's

river
01-04-2013, 05:53 PM
Unless I am mistaken, the drag will be many more times worse on a geared motor. A brush less motor has no friction minus the axle bearings. And unless the game has changed with new technology, a battery is a battery. I mean, 30 amp hours at 36 volts will be the same to the controller no matter if it's lead acid, Lipo, or 10 million potatoes and copper strips! Your maximum potential is less with lead acid, but I doubt a 1000watt hubmotor will ever need more than either can supply at any given time.

Brad

There is no drag at all on a geared hub. A direct drive bub will have the drag from the magnets. The more powerful the magnets the more the drag. On my amp hub 800 watts bearly any drag. on my Hs3540 hub which is allot more power with more powerful magnets, allot more but not that bad. I use most of mine for just a assist when i get tired or on hills, that why i love the lipo batteries . very light and powerful. and last allot longer, keeps the weight down. Most people start out with lead acid batteries but end up with lipo's River (I have both types)

Radical Brad
01-04-2013, 06:21 PM
That's interesting - the opposite of what I would have figured. On a geared hub, you still have the perm. magnets, and add to this the mechanical disadvantage and friction of gearing. What is the gear reduction in one of those units?

Brad

river
01-04-2013, 07:48 PM
i think its 7 to one, the gear do wear out after awhile mine are still good

socialtalker
01-04-2013, 08:28 PM
that is what i thought, but was afraid of. that is definitely NOT what i wanted to hear. i would have to diet and lose a serious amount of weight before i could use heavy batteries like that


Checking the Wheel chair rated batteries gives a various answer to 25 to 30 lb per battery depending on the make. So figure 75 to 100 pounds or or 34 to 45 Kg. for a 36v 35 Ahr pack. Just a quick google search. Hope that helps. Not sure of What Ahr- Brad was pushing. Pricing was all over the place for the same rated batteries depending on manufactor and distributor.

Radical Brad
01-05-2013, 12:17 AM
It's a choice between weight of batteries and lightness of wallet!
I had 75 pounds of batteries on my LongRanger, and it still hauled 2 people up a massive hill.
Simple solution... removable pack. If under human power, leave the lead at home.

There is still no way I would dump $1500 into a battery pack that I could get for $250 just to shave off 20 pounds. I mean, the motor is doing the work anyhow.
I intend to use the huge heavy lead gel batteries in my new Velomobile as well.

Brad

Ticktock
01-05-2013, 03:36 AM
Even easier--buy the plans for the CycleBully, and use it as a wheel barrow to help move the batteries when not attached to the bike!.
Steve G

bluemax
01-05-2013, 05:44 AM
The MAC that EM3EV sells is geared with a 5.1 ratio and has a clutch that allows only a small amount of drag when not powered up. This unit also supposedly has upgraded composite gears as the older nylon ones were suspect. One note is; the website shows availability of spare gears ($30) so, If I go this way would get them for sure.
Here is the link.

http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=40&product_id=52

Their 36v batt pack weighs 15 lbs and is priced well at $590.

As to the Cyclebully, what a great idea! Many positive elements to this concept. It would carry the weight of the batteries (which ever way you go, LiFePo4 or Gel) and motor, you could hook up the thing to multiple bikes, and can carry cargo/dogs, etc in it. Maybe I'll build one and test the results of powering it VS powering the Kyoto and report the results to the group.

Brad, so, you have four 12v gels in series? What amp rating did you use? I think I will go with three gels for now and maybe when the price of the others goes down, get them. Thanks for the great comments guys!

Radical Brad
01-05-2013, 12:31 PM
Yes, I run 48 volts to my hubmotor. I have 3 different packs, depending on the type of vehicle I am building or using.

Pack1 = 12 amp hours / total weight = 34 pounds
Good for dropping on any bike in a hurry with zip ties.
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/LC-RA1212P1/P230-ND/284838

Pack2 = 12 amp hours / total weight = 56 pounds
Good for medium rides of a few hours. Cyclebully / E-Style used.
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/BP20-12-B1/522-1026-ND/1090958

Pack3 = 40 amp hours / total weight = 128 pounds
All day pack! Used on LongRanger / Sparky.
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/BP40-12-B2/522-1017-ND/653338

* note : Digikey prices are the highest you will find, but shipping is free.

I like the 40 amp pack the best for a large long range vehicle. I have yet to run it down over a long day of travel.
For my velo, I am probably going to run a 36 volt 40 amp hour pack (weight will be 96 pounds). I found the 48 volt pack ran my vehicles a little faster than necessary, and my Velo is not going to be a racing machine.

So for about $300.00, I get an all day pack that will easily last 4-5 years, even being stored outdoors over our harsh winters. One day when Lipo can offer something even remotely close for the price, I will switch to save some weight. For now, I will just let the motor do the heavy lifting, after all it is my power slave.

Brad

TexasTuff
01-05-2013, 01:51 PM
I've not pulled the trigger on my motor yet, but the MAC from cellman (EM3ev (http://www.emissions-free.com/store/)) is at the top of my list. If cost is a factor, the geared hub motors are more expensive than direct drive motors.
Direct drive motors do add drag when not under power. The bigger the motor the more drag. I have not been able to get anyone to explain to me how much drag you get from the direct drive motors though. Would it be the extra effort to pedal into a 5 mph headwind or maybe a 20 mph headwind? Or maybe it is a small enough amount to not make a difference.
Brad is my math somewhat correct? I'm still learning about this. Using a 36v 40ah battery, what millage should you expect per charge. 36v * 40ah = total of 1440 watts. Using 80% capacity of the battery would yield 1152 watts. If you ride unassisted you might use 20 watts per mile which would yield about 58 miles per charge (93 km). Would this be in the range you expect or am I being to conservative? In most cases this should get someone to work and back. Might you expect to double that range by going 50% pedal and 50% battery power? 100 miles per day sound like a lot.
I know your millage may very depending on the weight of the vehicle, headwind and when you last oiled your chain. I'm just trying to get some ballpark idea of range.
Thanks
George
PS: I'm sorry, after I posted this I thought I probably should have started another thread with all these questions.

river
01-06-2013, 11:54 AM
The mac motor would be my choice to, just very pricy that why i never got one. . i just got these others at a good price and the worked out well. They explained it this way on most sites hub motor if its most using it as a electric bike and peddling less and geared hub if it using it more for a bike and peddling more. Geared hubs are also noisier. The drag on a hub is like running dirt tiires on instead road tires. There really isn't that much difference,

TexasTuff
01-06-2013, 12:53 PM
Thanks river. That much difference around the block is not very much. That much difference on a 40 or 50 mile ride would be a lot. I guess I'll stick with the geared motor.

Radical Brad
01-06-2013, 07:06 PM
I honestly don't believe you can rate mileage on an electric setup. When I lived in the city, I could take the E-Style out for a 30km run and get home with a decent level of charge. Around here, I have one track that kills the pack in 15 minutes, and another that is close to what I was getting in the city. I think the only accurate way to know your range is to do a real test.

Brad

RodM
01-09-2013, 07:24 PM
I have been following this thread with great interest because I would like to add electric assist to the the Kyoto Cruiser I built last year. I am filled with questions as I try to learn my way into this topic but my question this time has to do with batteries, especially in response to Brad's comment about gel batteries. When I made inquiries locally, I was told that, ignoring the LiFePo4 type, gel batteries were "old technology" and that the recommendation that was being suggested was for "absorbed glass mat" batteries, running anywhere from CDN$100 to $140 for 35-40 Amp/hour. Similar size and weight (35 pounds or more per battery). Gentlemen (or ladies - whoever is online and wishes to respond) - your comments, please.

Radical Brad
01-09-2013, 10:07 PM
Yes, glass mat are great batteries for EVs. These are used in auto conversion and sold by Optima and Hawker. They are more money, and I am not sure if they can be tipped or beat around as much though. I may purchase a 4 pack of Optima Yellow-Tops to try next year.

http://www.optimabatteries.com/us/en/products/yellowtop/

Brad

Locutus
01-10-2013, 02:28 PM
Yes, I run 48 volts to my hubmotor. I have 3 different packs, depending on the type of vehicle I am building or using.

Pack1 = 12 amp hours / total weight = 34 pounds
Good for dropping on any bike in a hurry with zip ties.
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/LC-RA1212P1/P230-ND/284838

Pack2 = 12 amp hours / total weight = 56 pounds
Good for medium rides of a few hours. Cyclebully / E-Style used.
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/BP20-12-B1/522-1026-ND/1090958

Pack3 = 40 amp hours / total weight = 128 pounds
All day pack! Used on LongRanger / Sparky.
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/BP40-12-B2/522-1017-ND/653338

* note : Digikey prices are the highest you will find, but shipping is free.

I like the 40 amp pack the best for a large long range vehicle. I have yet to run it down over a long day of travel.
For my velo, I am probably going to run a 36 volt 40 amp hour pack (weight will be 96 pounds). I found the 48 volt pack ran my vehicles a little faster than necessary, and my Velo is not going to be a racing machine.

So for about $300.00, I get an all day pack that will easily last 4-5 years, even being stored outdoors over our harsh winters. One day when Lipo can offer something even remotely close for the price, I will switch to save some weight. For now, I will just let the motor do the heavy lifting, after all it is my power slave.

Brad

Hey Brad,
I wonder how a battery pack based on one of these battery models would work for something like this:

http://www.unisa.edu.au/solarcar/Imagearchive/images/trev_01.jpg

http://w3.unisa.edu.au/solarcar/trev/default.asp

www.trevipedia.net

The Lithium battery pack they used for a 150 km range cost about $10,000.00 AUD and weighed about 100 kg. If the DigiKey gel batts could get a 100 km range for $1000 and weigh less than 200 kg, I think there would be some potential there. What do you think?

Total cost to the university of materials and machining was about $40,000.00 AUD. I think that one of us Zombies might be able to hack something similar to this freeway-capable two-seater for a fraction of the cost using used parts and a bit lower tech, such as lead-acid batteries. Perhaps it could be built for $5000 or less. The energy efficiency and range would be lower but if it provides sufficient performance and range for the user's purposes, why spend more?

Radical Brad
01-10-2013, 08:26 PM
Wow, what a great looking EV!
I will be putting those gel batteries to work once I get my velo done. Hills around here go from 900ft to 1200ft very often.

Brad

bluemax
03-02-2013, 09:35 AM
Finally got the trike out for testing with the geared Mac motor and 36 volt AGM's and it's really nice. The setup is: Mac 500/1000 watt motor, with em3ev controller, three speed throttle, cruise, brake handles wired to cut the power when hitting brakes, and three (series wired) 12 volt 22 amp AGM batteries. This motor is the 200 rpm version, which is a stump puller! (there are several other faster windings avail) This particular winding comes at a cost of speed. 1st speed is 50% current and it goes about 6mph. 2nd speed is about 11mph and 75%. Top speed at 100% is 14mph. Selecting a 320 rpm motor would result in 20mph. This is with 20" wheel. Someday, will go to lifepo's if the price comes down.

Radical Brad
03-02-2013, 10:48 AM
Look forward to seeing some photos!

Brad

Chickentoes
04-25-2016, 12:28 AM
Where did you get your free hub and disc mounting part made?

Chickentoes
05-03-2016, 10:51 PM
If you have the extra $$$, a brushless hubmotor is the best choice. I ran a 500 watt (overvolted from 36v to 48v) on my Kyoto and it would blast 2 people and cargo up a huge hill without any problems at all. I also find Lipo to be not worth the cost, which is why I just use big ole reliable and powerful gel batteries (wheelchair batteries). For about $300, you can build a HUGE 48v pack that will run all day and last 5 years.

Brad

Brad,
In your opinion, which specific motor and setup is the best choice. I am assuming you motorized the front wheel?

thanks