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Greenhorn
03-04-2009, 08:37 AM
I decided to start fabbing my bike this week, so I thought I would start a new thread (training time is over). I cut the mountain bike fork legs last night and had a rough time with my hacksaw getting a straight cut over the curves.--However, a few minutes with my new HF file set and I think I have the ends almost identical. I also traced and cut my end caps. :builder2:


My plan is to get the forks stripped this week and weld on the dropouts. The only problem is the nice long horizontal dropouts I am going to use do not have a seperate derailuer hanger whereas the donor bike did--not sure how this will affect things......:confused: I was able to get nice straight cuts on both dropouts that fit snugly against the fork ends, so I am going to install them vertically to make alignment easier.

If all goes well, and assuming no blow ups at work (big assumption), I hope to have the end cap and fork welded by Saturday.

SirJoey
03-04-2009, 08:43 AM
Lookin' forward to seeing your progress, GH. :)


http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/7131/sirjoeysigmedij1.gif

rickairmed
03-04-2009, 11:37 AM
Greenhorn thats great were here if you need any help . I think your ready to start :D.


Rick

taloch
03-04-2009, 12:50 PM
We are looking forward to some pictures Greenhorn, and I am sure you will reap the benefits of that practice now.

If you do decide to come to Bath on honeymoon, then I will be pleased to buy you a beer in one of our English pubs.

Greenhorn
03-04-2009, 01:15 PM
We are looking forward to some pictures Greenhorn, and I am sure you will reap the benefits of that practice now.

If you do decide to come to Bath on honeymoon, then I will be pleased to buy you a beer in one of our English pubs.

Sweet.....I always wanted to suck down a nice big mug of brown ale in a British pub, eat fish 'n chips, and be able to say "hey mate...bum me a fag" without getting funny looks. ;)

Richie Rich
03-04-2009, 10:47 PM
Weld On, Greenhorn...!!!!

...Richie...
.

Greenhorn
03-07-2009, 10:41 AM
The welding shall commence at 0900 hours

rickairmed
03-07-2009, 10:55 AM
Okie dokie :D you got 5 minutes left to prep ;). I will be in and out today but should be around if you run into trouble :D.

Rick

Greenhorn
03-07-2009, 12:01 PM
First try and I blewright through the edge of the fork. Apparently its chromoly. I had the timing on the 1/16 steel down perfect on my practice welds. I didn't even have an arc for more than a second and it blew through.

So then I managed to sort of fill the hole. got a nice bead on the other side. I stopped to check my progress and my alignment was all out of wack and I had zero penetration through the steel beam (I left off the end cap for now so I could check my penetration."

I ground off and filed off the welds and am back to where I started with uglier looking forks.

I am having second thoughts about using these forks and am thinking of going back to my original "stuff" the black fork (which is reynolds steel).


I have to go evaluate......

newrider3
03-07-2009, 12:33 PM
Reynolds is just fancier chromoly.

GregLWB
03-07-2009, 12:42 PM
First try and I blewright through the edge of the fork. Apparently its chromoly. I had the timing on the 1/16 steel down perfect on my practice welds. I didn't even have an arc for more than a second and it blew through.

So then I managed to sort of fill the hole. got a nice bead on the other side. I stopped to check my progress and my alignment was all out of wack and I had zero penetration through the steel beam (I left off the end cap for now so I could check my penetration."

I ground off and filed off the welds and am back to where I started with uglier looking forks.

I am having second thoughts about using these forks and am thinking of going back to my original "stuff" the black fork (which is reynolds steel).


I have to go evaluate......

GH - Are you using a junk wheel to help hold your forks in place? I too had alot of trouble at first welding those forks to the tube. Really frustrating but keep at it. I also found that if I blew a hole through the forks that it was easier to finish the weld and then clean it up turn down the welder and then fill the hole at the lower setting.

I watched the welding video links that were posted on another thread and he suggested using a propane torch to heat the heavier tube before welding the lighter tube (forks in your case) to it. I haven't done that yet but maybe one of the more experienced welders can comment.

Just stay with it. For me it is getting easier as the build progresses. The rear forks really seemed to be the hardest part and once you get them tacked really good you will be able to straighten them out before you do your final welding. I can't wait to see pics.

Greg

Greenhorn
03-07-2009, 01:01 PM
The alignment widthwise is not the problem. trying to keep the forks perfectly vertical and on the same plane as the tube is the problem. trying to keep the tube perfectly level is also a challenge

rickairmed
03-07-2009, 01:48 PM
Greenhorn as Greg suggested use an old wheel to help keep the forks aligned and also dont try to fully weld the forks at firt just get a few good tacks on them then check the alignment before fully welding . This will also help keep them aligned when you fully weld them.

Rick

trikeman
03-07-2009, 02:44 PM
Or maybe take the easy way out and either build a wooden jig to hold everything, or use the "stuff the tube with the fork" method as discussed here:

http://forum.atomiczombie.com/showthread.php?t=1909&highlight=high+roller

The good news is that all these problems you are having welding are a great learning experience. You can't really get better at it without making mistakes.

taloch
03-07-2009, 04:07 PM
A very good use of a Workmate is as a welding jig!

I use a "workmate" for all my bike building jobs, and I also use it to align everything whilst welding. After filing and drilling ready to stuff the fork, I bolt a tyre-less wheel into the fork and clamp the rim at one end of the "workmate" while clamping the square boom at the other end of the workmate jaws. It holds the complete assembly in line and welding is easy after that.

Mine is similar to this, but the two height version and much abused and older!
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=8054746

Hope this helps with your project.

Greenhorn
03-07-2009, 05:35 PM
The burn through on the mountain forks took too much out to get it aligned again---i spent 2 hours to no avail. So i went with plan 2. As you can see, I cut and welded a 1.5 square to the inside of the boom and then "stuffed" the fork to secure a good fit. Its on a downward angle so I shouldn't have problems with chainline. Also, there seems to be plenty of clearance for the cassette.

This is just tack welded. I think it looks straight and square. I just hope I dont have a twist to the boom. Its hard to tell.

Here it is (you asked for lots of pics)--its just tacked in 3 places

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP4993.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP4992.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP4989-1.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP4990-1.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP4987-1.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP4991.jpg

Greenhorn
03-07-2009, 06:27 PM
So, because nothing in this project can be easy....murphy's law stikes again.

as I was setting it up to complete my weld, I bumped into it....it hit the floor and broke my tacks welds:( time to start over....

trikeman
03-07-2009, 06:46 PM
So, because nothing in this project can be easy....murphy's law stikes again.

as I was setting it up to complete my weld, I bumped into it....it hit the floor and broke my tacks welds:( time to start over....

Dang - I was just looking at the pictures and was about to post, "Now get some more welds on there because tack welds are very fragile.

Hey its looking pretty good Greenhorn. Line it up, tack it again, and then put a few more tack welds on each corner before you move it again. Believe me we have all broken off some tack welds after getting things lined up, but that thing is starting to look like a bicycle.

trikeman
03-07-2009, 06:48 PM
A very good use of a Workmate is as a welding jig!

I use a "workmate" for all my bike building jobs, and I also use it to align everything whilst welding. After filing and drilling ready to stuff the fork, I bolt a tyre-less wheel into the fork and clamp the rim at one end of the "workmate" while clamping the square boom at the other end of the workmate jaws. It holds the complete assembly in line and welding is easy after that.

Mine is similar to this, but the two height version and much abused and older!
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=8054746

Hope this helps with your project.

Those Workmates do burn with a nice steady flame though if you get em hot enough. Don't ask me how I know lol.

newrider3
03-07-2009, 07:24 PM
Those Workmates do burn with a nice steady flame though if you get em hot enough. Don't ask me how I know lol.

QFT. You should see mine.

Greenhorn
03-07-2009, 09:31 PM
Well.....i am nothing if not persistant. It may have taken me 12 hours, but by golly, I have something sort of resembling a bike. I think I got the forks as centered as possible without having a jig or other special equipment.

I kinda went crazy on the welds. I had to fill in the gaps between the round cut off steerer tube and square beam. I got good practice laying a bead, letting it cool, laying another one, etc. Lots of starts and stops though.

I forgot that the fork I used is not reynolds. Its deddachi (sp?) No problems with burn through.

I did notice that when I was done, the fork legs had expanded outward so they didn't fit on the axle. I needed to squeeze them in a bit.

SWMBO spent the day shopping for wedding dresses while I destroyed her garage.

Pictures are on their way. I hope this thing turned out centered enough.....:builder2:

rickairmed
03-07-2009, 09:45 PM
Greenhorn you will find as you build it will come easier to you :D. I will add here on your next one if you take the half round file you got in the set from harbor freight :D you can actually fishmouth the square tube so the forkset sets up into the tube a little more flush :D. Dont cut it back apart now its not a big deal just something to make it easier next time :D.

Rick

Greenhorn
03-07-2009, 09:56 PM
Close up of the welds---yes, they are ugly

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5025.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5030.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5024.jpg


http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5028.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5033.jpg

Greenhorn
03-07-2009, 10:09 PM
Alignment:

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5011.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5016.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5000.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5004.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5005.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5007.jpg

rickairmed
03-07-2009, 10:12 PM
Looks good to me your on your way now you are officially a Bike builder :D.

Rick

GregLWB
03-07-2009, 10:17 PM
GH - It looks good. It will seem to get faster now. You have done the hardest part (getting over the fear of starting).

The only problem I see is the garage is too clean!:cheesy: The thing I found really helped is a vise. I bolted mine onto the OSB I'm using for a table top and it has speeded my work up and is much easier to line things up.

Greg

Greenhorn
03-07-2009, 10:22 PM
Greenhorn you will find as you build it will come easier to you :D. I will add here on your next one if you take the half round file you got in the set from harbor freight :D you can actually fishmouth the square tube so the forkset sets up into the tube a little more flush :D. Dont cut it back apart now its not a big deal just something to make it easier next time :D.

Rick

I thought of that...but I didn't know if the forks I was using were going to work and didn't want to mess up the beam. I figured it was easier to fill in gaps with weld and deal with squares than try and file fishmouths and get them even and aligned.

rickairmed
03-07-2009, 10:34 PM
GH - It looks good. It will seem to get faster now. You have done the hardest part (getting over the fear of starting).

The only problem I see is the garage is too clean!:cheesy: The thing I found really helped is a vise. I bolted mine onto the OSB I'm using for a table top and it has speeded my work up and is much easier to line things up.

Greg


LOL Greg I agree much to clean . I would take some pics of my garage but it would scare everybody :D. I am glad spring is around the corner cause its time to empty the garage again and put things back where they go :D. I have a 2 &1/2 car garage and 80% of the time you couldnt get an MG midget in here if you tried :D.


Rick

Greenhorn
03-07-2009, 11:09 PM
That was part of the deal with SWMBO.....i had to clean and organize her garage and pick up after myself. in order to use it for welding

rickairmed
03-07-2009, 11:27 PM
Her garage awwwwwww man we gotta talk :D. The deal when my SWMBO moved in here was simple THE GARAGE IS MINE you can have the rest of the house :D:D:D. I even have a Tshirt she got me on her birthday that says just that on it LOL. On second thought Greenhorn would you like to weld in my garage I'll cut you the same deal ;) :D.


Rick

Greenhorn
03-07-2009, 11:46 PM
Her garage awwwwwww man we gotta talk :D. The deal when my SWMBO moved in here was simple THE GARAGE IS MINE you can have the rest of the house :D:D:D. I even have a Tshirt she got me on her birthday that says just that on it LOL. On second thought Greenhorn would you like to weld in my garage I'll cut you the same deal ;) :D.


Rick


Well, it is "her" condo and "technically" (i.e. as far as her parents know) i do not live there yet.

scootdaddy
03-08-2009, 12:05 AM
Well, it is "her" condo and "technically" (i.e. as far as her parents know) i do not live there yet.

SSSHHHHHH I want tell

trikeman
03-08-2009, 01:38 AM
Greenhorn - whatever you were doing in the 5th picture down to produce the upper weld, keep doing that.

You are getting there. The bike looks good.

taloch
03-08-2009, 03:00 AM
Yes, I agree with Trikemans post, the welds are good enough. You done good.

You have achieved what you started to do and you should give yourself a pat on the back. It all looks straight and true and any (if any) tweeking of the frame can be done later.

Thanks for the pictures, keep them coming. They are inspiration for future garage hackers.

John Lewis
03-08-2009, 09:01 AM
Hi Greenhorn,

Great to see you have broken the ice and made a start. It will get easier from here on in.

Your welds are getting better all the time. Soon you will have that bike done.

As the others said, keep the pictures coming.

Congratulations on progress so far,

John Lewis

trikeman
03-08-2009, 09:59 AM
By the way, there is no shame in grinding down a weld you are not happy with and putting a cap weld on it. You don't have to take it all the way down to the base metal - just far enough to give yourself a nice smooth surface for the next layer. I sometimes find a small diameter round file is useful on the corner joints for this.

People who weld things like pipelines and other large pieces of equipment do this routinely. They lay down a root weld, then they grind it down to take out any slag or imperfections and lay another layer on. Then they repeat the process, until the final weld is finished. Where the application is critical (such as a pipeline or nuclear plant) I am told each pass is ground, then inspected before they can lay down the next pass.

comreich
03-08-2009, 10:29 AM
Good job thus far Greenhorn. Keep the pictures of your progress coming.

I'll have to take some pics of mine as it builds out.

Greenhorn
03-08-2009, 10:50 PM
Thanks for the kind words. Unfortunately, they are not earned.

I took another look at the frame today. I looked a little off. I remeasured everything with the wheel installed. The forks are centered and the wheel is perfectly centered on the beam. Both forks are level. But something still looked a bit off.

I took the level to the beam and sure enough, i muffed up. The beam has torsion relative to the forks. I couldn't figure out how this happened, and then I put the level to the garage floor.

When I was aligning the frame yesterday, I forgot to take into account (didn't think to check) that the garage floor is graded slightly downhill. As a result, when checking my tack job, I did not notice that the beam has a slight twist to it relative to the forks I "stuffed" inside.

Here is how far I am off. If the beam is level then the right fork is 1/8 inch off the ground. Conversly, if the fork legs are level, the beam is off level close to the same amount.

Needless to say...after the 12 hour marathon in the garage yesterday, I am very frustrated.

As far as I can tell, I have three choices:

1. Cut the thing apart and try and realign and re-weld (probaby the "best" choice from an engineering perspective, but not my first choice---without a jig--i dont know how I can get any closer by eyeballing it);

2. try and bend the fork legs vertically in opposite directions. (This seems the easiest and lest destructive method, as each leg would only need to move 1/16 of an inch. I tried this a few minutes ago and I couldn't get enough leverage to do it by hand).

3. When I install the dropouts, install them a 1/16 an inch off from centerline.

4. leave it be and hope the difference isn't noticable with 1.5 inch tires.


Obviously, when I cut a hole for the headtube at 90 degrees, the front forks will be slightly off center. While the 1/8 difference seems negligible now, then the headtube and forks are installed, the difference will become more pronounced at the bottom of the front forks.

Any suggestions/sage advice before I bash my head in a wall? ......

Am I insisting on too much precision for a homebuilt project?

rickairmed
03-08-2009, 11:01 PM
Greenhorn I would say your 2 easiest options would be either to tweak the rear forks as you said this may take a helper to do . The other easy to me option would be to cut the main beam just ahead of where you welded it to the forks and turn it slightly and weld it back on . You can clean up the joint later with some welding and grinding. Dont let it get you down remember this is your first build and a major learning process . I have a few things I have had to rework on the babyfox and still have one or 2 to rework . I am going to add here if you choose the second option go slowly with a cut off disk and try to only cut through the main beam and not the forktube.


Rick

trikeman
03-08-2009, 11:14 PM
Just to make sure I understand the problem it sounds like the following sketches. Sorry my cell phone doesn't have a macro lens.

http://www.atlantamusclecars.com/DeltaWolf/DSC00046.JPG

http://www.atlantamusclecars.com/DeltaWolf/DSC00047.JPG

If it were me, I would put a couple of pipes on the chain stays and use them to give me whatever leverage I needed. Stand on one and pull the other one.

You might also consider building a jig, which would simply be a 2x4 with two slots cut where the axles should go. Then go ahead and mount the front fork and put a piece of all thread or old axle in the dropouts. Bend a little at the time until the front and back axles are laying flat on the jig. If you do build this simple jig, I like your idea of just welding the dropouts 1/16" high and low. Seems like an easy solution and only you will ever notice it.

I might also just take my 1" pipe bender and put slight opposing bends on each leg. Of course you may not have a pipe bender.

Welding often distorts metal, and learning to prevent it by not welding all of one side at a time is part of learning to weld. In addition, you sometimes have to bend things back into square. That is one reason that welders have 1" thick welding tables with big azz vises on them. When I built my DW, I had to cut it apart at least two times for various reasons. Unlike wood, steel can be cut apart and re-welded. Its not a big deal, so stop beating yourself up about it. Hell, two weeks ago you couldn't even weld. Now, you have a joint so strong you can't bend it lol.

taloch
03-09-2009, 04:27 AM
I think you should wait until you have a front wheel mounted at the front to make any adjustments. Otherwise you may be doing it twice. Once now and again when the front wheel is mounted later.

1/8" is not a lot to worry about to pull back into shape. When I started building (hacking!) you should have seen some of my "twisted" frames that have been pulled back into line. Some looked impossible but was quite easy in the end. So don't worry about it and carry on with the build and sort it out later. A twist along the length is easier to fix than an alignment issue i.e. a tracking. Yours looks all right in that regard.

:)

trikeman
03-09-2009, 08:47 AM
12 hour welding marathons may also be part of the problem with frustration. Its good to sometimes get away from it and sleep on the problem. It always looks easier the next day to me.

Radical Brad
03-09-2009, 03:52 PM
My garage floor does that to me once and a while as well. I would have someone stand on the boom so it is off he floor by a few inches (paint cans?) and just bang down on one of the fork legs with a large hammer to get it into alignment. It only has to move 1/8 inch, so it won't be difficult to fix. Just use a 2x4 over the end of the fork leg to protect it from denting when you hit it.

Brad

newrider3
03-09-2009, 06:49 PM
My garage floor does that to me once and a while as well. I would have someone stand on the boom so it is off he floor by a few inches (paint cans?) and just bang down on one of the fork legs with a large hammer to get it into alignment. It only has to move 1/8 inch, so it won't be difficult to fix. Just use a 2x4 over the end of the fork leg to protect it from denting when you hit it.

Brad

BFH fixes everything.

Greenhorn
03-10-2009, 12:32 AM
Thanks for the tips. Trikeman...you're right...it doesn't seem like that big of a deal after a few night's sleep to think on it.

That 12-hour marathon probably wasnt the best of ideas either ....but I got myself all in a building frenzy and went on autopilot. I spent the previous evening aligning the original set of forks and I told myself when I woke up that morning that I was going to have forks welded to the boom at the end of the day. After the fiasco with the original forks, I was dead set on doing what I had set out to accomplish come hell or highwater. I managed to get a whole lot done in one day (come up with a whole new design; expanded/cut/sanded new forks; fabricated the "buffer" piece to make it fit snugly; aligned it, tacked it, broke it, aligned it again and welded).

I was like the tanzmanian ***** in the garage.....sparks flying everywhere in clouds of smoke, cutting, hacking, welding.....etc. In retrospect, that should have probably been a two-day affair. But, as my grandfather used to say....you don't really learn how to do anything correct until you f*!$ it up.

Right now, I am just happy I was able to do what I did and the error doesn't seem to be uncorrectable or big enough to doom the project.

GregLWB
03-10-2009, 09:35 AM
That 12-hour marathon probably wasnt the best of ideas either ....but I got myself all in a building frenzy and went on autopilot.

Just remember 'Not A Job'. Although we like to hear about and see your progress, this is a hobby and should be enjoyable. Set your own pace and do something else for a little while if you get frustrated.

That said - get back out there and fill the garage with smoke!:jester:

Greg

Greenhorn
03-12-2009, 03:54 PM
Question on the head tube install. Seeing as I am using 2 26 inch wheels, is it easier to just drill a hole on both the tope and bottom, rather than cut it and carve our the fishmouths?

If I drill, I need one of those bi-metal hole-saws and a drill with a support arm on the side, correct?

The steerer tube is 1 inch, and the headtube is a bit wider and comes awefully close to the edges of the boom.





Thanks.

trikeman
03-12-2009, 04:01 PM
Question on the head tube install. Seeing as I am using 2 26 inch wheels, is it easier to just drill a hole on both the tope and bottom, rather than cut it and carve our the fishmouths?

If I drill, I need one of those bi-metal hole-saws and a drill with a support arm on the side, correct?

The steerer tube is 1 inch, and the headtube is a bit wider and comes awefully close to the edges of the boom.

Thanks.

Greenhorn - I am not sure which way it easier, but the fishmouth method will require lining up two tubes with fishmouths.

If you do decide that the tubing is wide enough to cut a round hole in, you might consider the method (can opener) brad came up with in the DW USS mod here:

http://www.atomiczombie.com/videos/dwmod1/dwmod1.htm

rickairmed
03-12-2009, 04:10 PM
Greenhorn if I was going to drill the maintube I would figure out the angle I needed and drill through all the way from top to bottom or vice versa . I have a drillpress with an adjustable table on it so I could set the angle I wanted and drill through . I got my drillpress at Harbor freight if you watch their website you can catch the smaller ones onsale for a pretty good price and if your going to be building bents I would say a drillpress would be invaluable . I intend to get a bigger floormodel this summer when a nice one pops up on craigslist .

Rick

Greenhorn
03-12-2009, 04:19 PM
I'm using a straight 90 degree angle.

trikeman
03-12-2009, 04:51 PM
A straight 90 should be relatively easy. I think maybe I would try Brad's method if it will leave you at least 1/8" of material on each side of the hole. Just use a market to outline the tube and make sure the top hole marking is the same distance away from both sides and the bottom one and have at it. Drill inside your mark and remember the mark is probably larger than the tube you used to mark it with. Spend an hour or so with the half-round file and your are done.

After you get the hole, put the tube in an tack it. Do not weld it all the way around until you are sure it is perfectly 90% from side to side and front to back. Some slop can come out if you gently tap the tacks.

I hope you have a good metal square. The last one I bought at Home Depot, it took me about 10 tries to find a square one. Take a piece of wood or metal with you with 2 known parallel flat sides. Then lay the square across your piece of wood and mark the 90 degree line all the way across. Flip the square and see if the line is still square. You would be surprised how much some of them are off.

rickairmed
03-12-2009, 05:55 PM
A straight 90 would be a breeze with the right size holesaw straight through no reason to flip the frame just make sure the drill is perfectly at 90* when drilling through.


Rick

Greenhorn
03-12-2009, 06:37 PM
I may try the can-opener method. I don't own a drill press (or a good heavy duty drill for that matter--which I am getting tonight) and I need enough funds left over to get some decedent components for the bike.

trikeman
03-12-2009, 06:50 PM
I don't think you need a very heavy drill to drill 16 ga tubing. I have an old orange plastic drill I bought from K-Mart when I was in high school, and it still works well. I am 59. Of course they don't make em like that anymore, and I will confess I also own a heavy duty Craftsman drill and a HF drill press.

I can't remember drilling anything over about 3/4" with these but I will tell that even with a cheap drill, these drill bits will kick butt. Best drill bits I have ever owned for drilling big holes:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=96275

I would rather have a cheap drill and them that a good drill and most hole saws.

Greenhorn
03-12-2009, 06:53 PM
I don't think you need a very heavy drill to drill 16 ga tubing. I have an old orange plastic drill I bought from K-Mart when I was in high school, and it still works well. I am 59. Of course they don't make em like that anymore, and I will confess I also own a heavy duty Craftsman drill and a HF drill press.

I already ruined a couple of drill bits on my cheapo black and decker.

trikeman
03-12-2009, 06:56 PM
Sorry we posted at the same time. Check those step drills I posted. They are the best thing since sliced bread. I used em on my DW axle holes and they cut through steel like butta. They also are very self-centering. You do need to use a slow speed as you get into larger holes though. I will never again use a regular drill bit in steel over about 1/4" again since discovering those.

rickairmed
03-12-2009, 07:00 PM
I have several sets of step drill bits and also have hole saws all the way up to 4" let me tell you with a 4" holesaw you better have a side handle on the drill cause if it catches your wrist just broke otherwise :D.

Rick

trikeman
03-12-2009, 07:04 PM
I agree Rick. Even with the 3/4" size you better have some way to hold your drill tight and the work piece too. I don't think I would try using anything much over 1" outside my drill press with the work piece clamped down well.

Greenhorn would probably be better off (safer) drilling smaller holes (maybe 1/4") as in the can opener method, if he is going to use a hand drill.

rickairmed
03-12-2009, 07:16 PM
Trikeman if I could figure out how to use my drillpress to drill holes in the side of houses I can assure you I would never drill a hole bigger than 1" without it but most of the time I am drilling 3-4" holes in houses to run Flue pipes out and the drillpress just doesnt fit :D. I think he would be safe with 1"-1&1/4" with a holesaw as long as he was holding the frame steady and went slow with the holesaw. I usually dont need the side handle till I get over 3" but I am used to doing it.

Rick

trikeman
03-12-2009, 08:26 PM
Rick - maybe its because I have always bought cheap ones, but I never saw a hole saw that will drill as true and easy as one of those step drills.

rickairmed
03-12-2009, 08:42 PM
Trikeman I buy nothing but Lennox Holesaws and I use my stepdrills for anything up to 1&1/4" . if you go slow and use something to lube the holesaw as you go and use a decent holesaw it will track straight and true everytime :D. Granted I use my holesaws to earn my living so I buy nothing but Lennox for that reason . With the step bits I have actually found the HF bits to be pretty decent and alot cheaper than the others.

Rick

rickairmed
03-12-2009, 08:45 PM
Holesaws should be run at a low speed and let the saw do the work with light pressure.

Rick

macka
03-12-2009, 11:08 PM
I use hole saws, step bits, and the dreaded 1/4" die grinder. I bought a HF electric die grinder, plus I have a CH air model. I find the die grinder makes short work of clean up when you use the can opener method. The other trick is to get a fly cutter and use it in a drill press, just go slow and use plenty of coolant, and you'll get a super clean fish mouth.

SirJoey
03-13-2009, 04:48 AM
...maybe its because I have always bought cheap ones, but I never saw a hole saw that will drill as true and easy as one of those step drills.That's exactly right. And it's not just the cheap ones.
I've bought a couple of good ones before, & by their very nature,
they'll never hold a candle to a step drill, at least as far as accuracy, anyway.

I did use a holesaw & hand drill to put the headtube hole through the frames of both, my Nexus,
& the BullDog (LodeRunner), but I cut 'em slightly undersize, & filed 'em for a good, snug fit.

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/5763/holesawed1.jpg

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/8792/holesawed2.jpg


http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/7131/sirjoeysigmedij1.gif

trikeman
03-13-2009, 05:54 AM
I use hole saws, step bits, and the dreaded 1/4" die grinder. I bought a HF electric die grinder, plus I have a CH air model. I find the die grinder makes short work of clean up when you use the can opener method. The other trick is to get a fly cutter and use it in a drill press, just go slow and use plenty of coolant, and you'll get a super clean fish mouth.


I have both the straight and the angle 1/4" HF air powered grinders. I have used them mostly for gasket removal work on engine blocks with the little 2" 3M Roloc discs. The grinders are hard to beat at about $10 each on sale. They work great. I originally bought one for grinding welds, but have never had much success finding carbide bits in town. What bits did you use to clean up the cuts, and where did you buy them?

trikeman
03-13-2009, 05:56 AM
SJ - very nice work, considering you were using a hand held drill. A picture is worth 1,000 words :punk:

Greenhorn
03-13-2009, 10:13 AM
Ok...so what I am hearing is that holesaw will do the trick, but are more difficult to handle than a step drill bit?

I think I will pick up one of those step drills tonight. (I am dragging SWMBO to Wally World, Harbor freight, and farm and fleet all in one night)

rickairmed
03-13-2009, 02:22 PM
OOOOoooooooooooooh your a glutton for punishment your taking SWMBO to the toy stores ( its much harder to hide the toys if she see's them in the basket ) :D:D.


Rick

taloch
03-13-2009, 02:32 PM
I am off out to buy a step drill too!

I have always used the "hole-saw-and-file" method, but the step drill looks good. They look robust compared to a hole saw; many of mine are missing teeth.

trikeman
03-13-2009, 04:04 PM
Its probably a bad idea to take a woman to Harbor Freight. There are exceptions (I suspect Kat might enjoy it). It takes at least an hour to properly browse a HF, and most women are bored in about 5 minutes there. It takes me 5 minutes just to turn all the dials on the lathes while making whirring noises pretending I am cutting a hub. You will get subtle pressure to leave early.

This weekend will be especially bad since it is Parking Lot sale weekend, and the place will be packed. One possible side benefit is there will be other bored wives there and she may get the idea that your behavior is normal.

rickairmed
03-13-2009, 04:09 PM
LOL Trikeman I take my SWMBO to Horrible Freight but she is a tool ***** like me :D so she actually goes one way and I go the other we combine baskets before checkout to make sure we didnt double up on to much :D. I realise my SWMBO is a rare one she is actually the one who gets the HF emails and forewards them to me :D.


Rick

Greenhorn
03-13-2009, 04:23 PM
Its probably a bad idea to take a woman to Harbor Freight. There are exceptions

I told her they had a sale on patio benches.....

trikeman
03-13-2009, 04:29 PM
Greenhorn - I don't know if you know this or not, but you can always see the HF sales circulars by going to this website:

www.harborfreightusa.com

Then click on current ads.

If you don't put in the USA it just gives you the regular HF site.

Greenhorn
03-14-2009, 10:53 PM
today wasn't very productive. i managed to prep the headtube for welding and began on my seat since my aluminium finally came in. i had a hard time cutting the angles i wanted with a hacksaw.

I bought a drill and a step bit. I practiced on some of the spare pieces of tubing I used for welding practice and managed to get the bit stuck on my first try, made my drill smoke, and wound up wth a very off-center hole.


I tried re-aligning the rear forks again. i hope it means my welds are good when i try and move the legs in opposite directions and can see the main beam actually twisting......

hopefully I will have the seat cut to shape tommorrow and maybe a hole for the headtube if I am feeling lucky.


Had to cut short the building today as it got up to 50 degrees. Had to go for a ride.

trikeman
03-14-2009, 11:02 PM
I bought a drill and a step bit. I practiced on some of the spare pieces of tubing I used for welding practice and managed to get the bit stuck on my first try, made my drill smoke, and wound up wth a very off-center hole.
.


Don't push down so hard - let the bit do the work. If it stops or hangs up, take your finger off the trigger and start it again. How large was the hole when you got it to stick? It can be hard to handle a hand-held drill on the larger sized holes. How were you holding the drill and the tube? Did you drill a pilot hole first?

Greenhorn
03-16-2009, 10:01 AM
Sunday progress report:

Spent most of the afternoon trying to fill holes in headtubes. The lowest setting on my welder is just too high to work with chromoly. As soon as I got an arc ..."poof" and I had a blow out. I even tried laying a washer on top of the hole...but still same problem. I then tried the headtube from the x-mart bike I scavenged from my kid sister. This worked much better, although I had more filing to do because I accidently cut across the tube itself when hacking it off the frame. It still took me a while to get the hole filled and I had a few blow outs. It turned out pretty good, except I got a little over-zealous with my flap disk so there is a slight curvature on the outside wall of the tube near the holes.

I found the best technique was to make concentric circles around the hole and then when I had a "mound" built up, to let it sit on the top for a few seconds so as to make the mound "sag" to fill the hole.


I also did some more work on my seat. I still have some more cutting to do, but right now, the seat weighs 5 lbs...much more than I had hoped. I think I will maybe shave off another pound worth of aluminum before I am done.

trikeman
03-16-2009, 10:26 AM
Greenhorn - I don't think the settings on your welder are too high for Chromoly. The chromoly you are trying to weld may be too thin for your welders lowest settings, but it is not because it is chromo. The stuff pretty much welds just like mild steel in my experience - it is just that it may become embrittled if not heat treated afterwards. Of course the whole reason for using chromo in the first place is so you can use thinner tubing with the same strength. I only bring it up because I hate to see people shy away from perfectly good parts because they are chromo and they think they can't weld them.

comreich
03-16-2009, 10:51 AM
Yeah, really thin-wall chromoly is a pain to weld. My lowracer frame has a bunch of tubes like that and I spent far too long filling in the wholes that I created. I have one or two on the front of my high-racer too, but I think the thinning was created by over zealous grinding. Either way, take it easy and the feel will come. I know that's what I keep telling myself :)

Greenhorn
03-17-2009, 11:27 PM
greg's progress got me inspired. I left work early and after 3 1/2 hours, here is what I did. the holes seem to line up quite well. I had trouble getting down to the last "step" in the step bit. my drill overheated twice, so I finished it off with my half round file

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5043.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5041.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5040.jpg


So, now the big question is....highracer or mid racer??

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5049.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5051.jpg

Here is my aluminum seat in the background. right now it is 4 lbs. I cut it big, so I will probably shave some more off it.

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5055.jpg

trikeman
03-17-2009, 11:58 PM
That looks great to me. We knew you could do it. Congratulations - You are on the home stretch now. The aluminum seat will be great. If you think you can ride it, i would go for the high racer.

Greenhorn
03-18-2009, 12:16 AM
That looks great to me. We knew you could do it. Congratulations - You are on the home stretch now. The aluminum seat will be great. If you think you can ride it, i would go for the high racer.

You mean the first one, with the dip down?

Greenhorn
03-18-2009, 12:18 AM
That looks great to me. We knew you could do it. Congratulations - You are on the home stretch now. The aluminum seat will be great. If you think you can ride it, i would go for the high racer.

I'm not there yet...but i have something that resembles a bike and feel like I might actually pull this off. Much thanks again to everyone here. I wouldn't have gotten this far if it weren't for you guys.


i see how this is addictive. After every major step, I am flying high as a kite!

trikeman
03-18-2009, 12:30 AM
You mean the first one, with the dip down?

Oh - i wasn't referring to which way the dip goes. I misunderstood what you were saying and thought maybe you were considering a smaller wheel on the front, which would make it a mid racer to my eyes.

Greenhorn
03-18-2009, 12:46 AM
And ....for every up, there is a down. My original specs had me at a 45 inch wheelbase. I failed to take into account the rake on the front fork I bought. so now I am at a whopping 49 inches. That may cross the thrshold from SwB to LWB. I guess I could always turn the fork around......

taloch
03-18-2009, 03:21 AM
Nothing much to worry about Greenhorn, as I think you may have quite a few options available to get over the problem:

If it were me I would cut 4 inches out of the frame between the wheels and weld it back together again. But, only do this if you are confident of your welding. My advice would be to practice on the very end of the front spare length of boom until you have a strong joint, and only then attempt the shortening for real.

Getting the pieces to line up is quite tricky as any misalignment would show up. Unless you cut and join under the seat area then it would not show too much I guess. The workmate would help to align it all. You may spoil your shiny new workmate with a few burns, but we have all been there and done that!! :)

OR...

Another option is to go with it for now and see how it rides, positioning the seat 4 inches more forward than you were originally planing to. You can shorten it at a later date if/when you feel you need to.

OR...

Yet another option open to you is to move the head tube to the rear by 4 inches, and weld two plates over the previous head tube holes. (Cut from the far forward end of the boom so as to keep the thickness of material). This can be made to look quite invisible once painted, and doesn't involve cutting and welding the main frame anywhere. This may be the easiest option for you.

But apart from this very slight set back the build is indeed looking like a bike now, and you will be proudly riding it soon.

Incidentally, my new piece of aluminium 36" long and cut to 7" wide weighs about 3 pounds.

Thanks for the pictures.

comreich
03-18-2009, 08:53 AM
Dude, you still have more than foot of wheelbase before you broach the LWB category, and your cranks are ahead of the wheel (or will be), so even at 49" the bike still qualifies as a SWB. Unfortunately, you'll add another 1/2" or more when you put the extra dropouts on the rear forks.

I'm not sure how tall you are, or how long your legs are, but the "midracer" idea is probably going to be a bit easier to get used to.

Either way, congratulations on your progress so far.

Greenhorn
03-18-2009, 09:26 AM
Right now, I am deciding between two options:

1. Keep the headtube where it is, and use the top configuration (where the chainstays are on a downward slope. This should put me closer to the ground and give better aerodynamics to make up for the added length and wieght; or

2. Cutting two new holes four inches back and covering the two I made yesterday, and using the bottom configuration.

Option 1 gives me more of a T-bone look, while option two would give me a much shorter wheelbase like the bacchetta's, volae's and rans. I am leaning towards option 1, as option 2 may give me some problems with the sliding bottom bracket, and I don't want to hack it up any more.

Or I suppose I could just adhere to Brad's plans, keep the headtube where it is and use the bottom configuration. The highracer plans call for the headtube to be 30 inches down from the end of the tube--which is what I did.

GregLWB
03-18-2009, 09:43 AM
Greenhorn,

I like it! My two cents are - have the rear forks curve downward like in Brad's plan. I think that is the one thing that really sold me on this design.

I also like your idea for the seat and would have considered something similar if I were a lighter guy like you. That bike is going to look like you paid alot of money when you're done. Good job.

Greg

trikeman
03-18-2009, 09:46 AM
If it were me, I would leave the holes where they are and finish it. A longer wheel base rides better anyway, and is only slightly less maneuverable. The proportions you have now look great to me. From an aesthetic standpoint, I think I also like the downward curving chain stays better, as per the plans.

Greenhorn
03-18-2009, 09:51 AM
Greenhorn,
That bike is going to look like you paid alot of money when you're done. Good job.

Greg

Well, between the welder, bike parts, and all the power tools, I will have paid a lot of money.

trikeman
03-18-2009, 09:57 AM
Well, between the welder, bike parts, and all the power tools, I will have paid a lot of money.

It gets worse :D

. I started on this journey because I wanted to build a recumbent. I guess I can blame Carson with this recycledrecumbent pages for that. Eventually I ended up here and built one of Brad's creations. Now, I own two electric welders and an oxy-acetylene outfit with 2 torches, not to mention an assortment of grinders, a 14" cross-cutting metal saw, a drill press, lots of clamps, a welding table, etc. etc. It would definitely have been cheaper to just buy a recumbent (as I later did with my $300 used Rans), but not nearly as much fun. I have also built and repaired lots of other useful stuff with the equipment. Good welders pretty much last longer than your lifetime and hold their value well, so its a good investment.

GregLWB
03-18-2009, 10:03 AM
Well, between the welder, bike parts, and all the power tools, I will have paid a lot of money.

But the equipment will last you a long time and the cost will go down as you build other things. And you will get it once you ride this bike in public as opposed to the other bikes that you 'bought'. The first time someone stops you and says "nice bike, where'd you get it" - PRICELESS.:)

comreich
03-18-2009, 10:27 AM
The first time someone stops you and says "nice bike, where'd you get it" - PRICELESS.:)

Ain't that the truth!

Greenhorn
03-18-2009, 01:32 PM
If it were me, I would leave the holes where they are and finish it. A longer wheel base rides better anyway, and is only slightly less maneuverable. The proportions you have now look great to me. From an aesthetic standpoint, I think I also like the downward curving chain stays better, as per the plans.


After further reflection, I will stick with the plans. I checked, and some of Challenge's Highracers--the Sieren's--have 49 inch wheelbases. Too many variables the other way around.

Greenhorn
03-21-2009, 12:54 AM
Work for tommorrow:

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5149.jpg

the seat:

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5140.jpg

me testing out seat height/boom clearance:

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5115.jpg

scootdaddy
03-21-2009, 01:09 AM
its looking good :punk:

you'll be rideing a lot sooner than I will!!


Keith

GregLWB
03-21-2009, 01:37 AM
me testing out seat height/boom clearance:

It's looking like progress to me!:1eye: Did you get SWMBO to take the picture for you. If so she's buying into this whole deal and you may end up with your next build being hers.:jester:

Greg

Greenhorn
03-21-2009, 04:01 PM
Headtube tacked:

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5151.jpg

Droupouts welded--i "think" it took care of my alignment problem or at least reduced it to where it is negligable. I dont like the angle of the derailuer hanger though....
http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5152.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5155.jpg


Another mock up:

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5157.jpg

tommorrow I will add the seat support tube and maybe the seatstays.




oh----wheelbase is now 48"

rickairmed
03-21-2009, 06:07 PM
Greenhorn it looks like it wont be long before you do the first crash test great job its looking like a bike now .


Rick

Greenhorn
03-21-2009, 08:01 PM
Thanks. The welding seems to be getting easier and I feel like I am making progress.


I'm just hoping the welds hold. I think I may sand down the main welds at the endand throw another surface layer on to be on the safe side and to make it look nicer.

I am still worried about the BB. I think I will order one of the thick ones from PowerOnCyling because I can just tell I will have burnthrough issues with the one I have.

I am going to Farm and Fleet tonight to get some small tubes for the seat stays.....How thick do you think I need them?

rickairmed
03-22-2009, 12:44 AM
I would get 1/16 thick X 1/2 " tube for the seat stays should be plenty strong.


Rick

Greenhorn
03-22-2009, 01:19 AM
Danka
.........


I hijacked my trainer and front wheel stand for a lazy man's-jig--so now I have her standing up in my car slot in SWMBO's garage.---so SWMBO gets to look at it everytime she takes her care in and out.......:batman:

I am amazed at how relatively "light" the frame is so far. I'm sure it will feel like a beast after installing the seat, BB, and crankset.


I need to start thinking of a name.

.........Yes, I am wierd, I name all my bikes. When SWMBO complains I spend more time with my bikes than her, I tell her....well, my girls let me ride them for hours at a time whenever I want and never have headaches.:jester:

scootdaddy
03-22-2009, 01:24 AM
.

......... When SWMBO complains I spend more time with my bikes than her, I tell her....well, my girls let me ride them for hours at a time whenever I want and never have headaches.:jester:


dooooph!!!!

Greenhorn
03-23-2009, 07:31 PM
I am going to start constructing my seat mounts. As a mentioned before, the seat will attach on the bottom via a interlocking "U" system so that the seat can pivot as the recline adjusts in the back. I am going to weld a 3 1/2 inch piece of steel on either side of the main beam and then weld a double "T" bar to screw onto the underside of the seat with the "T"s 1.5 inches apart. A bolt through all four pieces with a quick release lever will allow the seat to pivot as I adjust the recline in the back. So the seat will be elevated 1.5 inches from the main beam.


How thick of steel do you think I need to use for the seat support mounts? I was originally planning on using 1/8 steel, but am wondering whether I need to go up to 3/16 like the mounts for the BB.

Thoughts?........

Greenhorn
03-25-2009, 11:31 PM
Here is some updates.....

welded the seat support tonight.


http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5184.jpg


http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5183.jpg


http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5170.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5167.jpg

mock up of seat and what I want to do with handlebars


http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5192-1.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5190.jpg

rickairmed
03-25-2009, 11:57 PM
Thats looking more and more lke a bike everytime I see it :D Great Job.


Rick

Greenhorn
03-26-2009, 12:04 AM
Thanks. I still can't quite tell if the headtube is in straight/if the bike is tracking straight, as I dont have a headset installed and there is lots of wobble with the fork.

I am also thinking of rewelding the main joint, but am worried about warping it.


Its funny.....I was so scared of welding when i started this....and now i love it. I don't knwo what it is....something about burning two pieces of metal together to make something new is just friggin cool.......esp. when you spend all day behind a desk getting yelled at!

GregLWB
03-26-2009, 12:35 AM
Look at you go! You'll be riding in no time. It's looking great.

Greg

taloch
03-26-2009, 02:53 AM
Those welds on the seat support look good. Your welding has improved a lot since you first started, and it is a very valuable skill to have learned and will always be with you now. Let the force be with you.

The sense of achievement is a wonderful thing, and is indeed addictive.

:)

TheKid
03-26-2009, 03:16 AM
Looking good. Watch out for the "Killer Tiller"

SirJoey
03-26-2009, 07:55 AM
Shapin' up nicely, GH!
Your welding skills have improved dramatically, too!

Are we gettin' excited yet? :taz:


http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/7131/sirjoeysigmedij1.gif

Greenhorn
03-26-2009, 09:44 AM
Looking good. Watch out for the "Killer Tiller"

Come again...?

SirJoey
03-26-2009, 10:01 AM
Come again...?http://forum.atomiczombie.com/showthread.php?t=902&highlight=tiller



http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/7131/sirjoeysigmedij1.gif

sksound5
03-26-2009, 11:05 AM
Stupid question, how tall are you and what is your wheel size? I just got all the parts, steel, workmate, and grider. Wood pellets are out of garage and build has started(slowly) for daughters bikes. Have learned alot from watching yours. I just don't want to build to tall for the kids. Right now looking at 20" for one and 26 for the other(no donor 24" wheels). What is height from ground to seat?

Greenhorn
03-26-2009, 11:11 AM
I'm using 26 inch wheels. I am 5 foot 9. I haven't measured the seat height yet. I am going to try and install the seat brackets this weekend and can get back to you.

.....I'm glad my blundering about is useful :)

jimFPU
03-26-2009, 11:14 AM
Very nice build Green!

sksound5
03-26-2009, 11:20 AM
keep up the great work, hopefully mine will show up here soon(glacial speed)

Greenhorn
03-26-2009, 11:33 AM
slow is better than fast. Go fast and you will mess something up----see earlier re: my issue with fork alignment

TheKid
03-26-2009, 11:59 AM
slow is better than fast. Go fast and you will mess something up----see earlier re: my issue with fork alignment


I'm as slow as molasses, but I still manage to mess things up. If I worked fast, I'd have nothing to ride.

Greenhorn
03-29-2009, 11:51 AM
status report:

Yesterday, I welded the headtube on completely. I also sanded and rewelded the main joint with the rear forks....it looks much nicer. My welds are turning out pretty nice now.

My plan was to weld on the rear triangle yesterday. In the process, I realized that the seat supprot tube was actually coming off at an angle.... I tried bending it back in the other direction, but the welds were so strong that when I tried to push the seat support tube the other way, the entire main beam would start to twist.

So I had to chop it off, and today I have to sand down the previous welds and give it another go.

trikeman
03-29-2009, 11:55 AM
Its great to watch the metamorphosis of a frightened newbie to an accomplished bike fabricator. Your progress is an inspiration to all who struggle to learn something new.

Radical Brad
03-29-2009, 12:07 PM
It won't be long before the "Green Machine" is out there feeding on wedgies!
Great progress on the welding as well.

Brad

sundug
03-29-2009, 02:16 PM
I`m just starting on my SWB hi roller with a 20" front and 26" rea wheel. Can anyone tell me how long the main frame tube should be? I`m 6'1", What distance from rear axle to steering tube? Thanks, Doug

Greenhorn
03-30-2009, 11:34 PM
Thanks guys. I still suspect it may be a while before we see a completed bike. Here are some pics of what I did this weekend. i think I may need to redo the mounting for the seat stays because there is really nothing under them except my small welds supporting any load. The seat stays are just tacked.
http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5261.jpg
http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5257.jpg




I included some photos of the rewelding.

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5264.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5267.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5266.jpg

here is a pic from the rear. You can see my original mistake--- how the right fork leg is higher than the left---I wish I would have fixed this from the outset. But I think lowering the right dropout compensates--although it makes the wheel alignment look goofy. Unless the thing is horrid to handle, I can't justify ripping it apart again.

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5256.jpg

Greenhorn
03-30-2009, 11:39 PM
here are some alignment photos I took. I like the symetry

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5268-1.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5254.jpg


Oh.......and I feel bad, but I splurged this week. I was impatiently waiting for my BB to arrive and saw this guy on "sale" (SWMBO is away on a business trip..........:jester:


)----i just hope the quality of the build justifies such a nice crankset.


http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5276.jpg

trikeman
03-31-2009, 06:39 AM
Its definitely getting there. As fas as the BB goes, the first bike is a practice bike, so even if you don't like it on that one, it will always fit the next one.

GregLWB
03-31-2009, 10:17 AM
GH - I agree with Trikeman, you can always move parts from bike to bike. What is the gearing on your new crankset and what gearing are you putting on the rear?

I'm liking the look of your bike. I find myself looking forward to the next installment and how much your confidence is growing.:jester: Way to go!

Greg

Greenhorn
03-31-2009, 10:23 AM
What do you think about how the seat stays are attached to the rear forks. Do you think building up more weld on top of the dropout will be sufficient, or should I cut and move them up along the fork arms?

GregLWB
03-31-2009, 10:31 AM
What do you think about how the seat stays are attached to the rear forks. Do you think building up more weld on top of the dropout will be sufficient, or should I cut and move them up along the fork arms?

On the welds I would hope Rick or one of the guys with experience welding would weigh in on that for you (I don't know enough yet to know what I'm talking about).:jester:

My personal feel is that for the strenght of the triangle you should move them a little forward of the dropouts. That is how Brad shows it in his design and I would guess that the bike you currently ride is set up that way too. I mounted mine close to the drop outs but further back than Brad shows.:)

Greg

trikeman
03-31-2009, 10:52 AM
I don't think a few inches forward or back is going to make much difference in the strength of the triangle, as long as the seat stay is on top of the chain stay. That said, I do think the weld in your first picture where you are attaching the seat stay looks like a cold weld to me. I am not sure I would trust that one. In the other picture, you put the seat stay so far behind the dropout that you didn't leave yourself much to weld to. By welding the seat stay behind the dropout, you are asking the weld to take all the downward force. I might think about cutting the seat stays off and rewelding them at least a bit more forward to correct both those problems.

Greenhorn
03-31-2009, 11:07 AM
I don't think a few inches forward or back is going to make much difference in the strength of the triangle, as long as the seat stay is on top of the chain stay. That said, I do think the weld in your first picture where you are attaching the seat stay looks like a cold weld to me. I am not sure I would trust that one. In the other picture, you put the seat stay so far behind the dropout that you didn't leave yourself much to weld to. By welding the seat stay behind the dropout, you are asking the weld to take all the downward force. I might think about cutting the seat stays off and rewelding them at least a bit more forward to correct both those problems.

Great. That is exacly what I was thinking. Thanks.

trikeman
03-31-2009, 11:30 AM
I should add that this forward/backward positioning argument was not my first. In another post, I questioned whether Brad moving the seat stays forward in the design might weaken the rear, since the rear axle would now by cantilevered a few inches on the stays. Brad correctly pointed out that the forks cut off most bikes are made thicker as they approach the dropouts, which changed my mind on that.

GregLWB
03-31-2009, 11:33 AM
I should add that this forward/backward positioning argument was not my first. In another post, I questioned whether Brad moving the seat stays forward in the design might weaken the rear, since the rear axle would now by cantilevered a few inches on the stays. Brad correctly pointed out that the forks cut off most bikes are made thicker as they approach the dropouts, which changed my mind on that.

I bow to the master.:shame: Thanks.:)

Greg

Greenhorn
03-31-2009, 11:38 AM
If thats the case, then what I might do is instead of cuttung the ends down, I might just rest the seat support on top of the brake mount crossbar, and cut off the top fringes.

trikeman
03-31-2009, 11:43 AM
GH - I am not sure which brake mount crossbar you are talking about. Can you explain that a bit differently?

Greenhorn
03-31-2009, 12:11 PM
http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5254.jpg

the horizontal bar with the drilled brake mount.

GregLWB
03-31-2009, 12:20 PM
Before you do that I would put the wheel back on and make sure that the brakes will be able to reach it properly. It may be too high. Mine was and I had to move the brake bosses on mine.

Will you be mounting your brakes from the mount or are you going to install brake bosses? If brake bosses, I found on mine that the stays were too wide when welded to the side of the seat support and had to weld them to the back of it. That may have been because I am using a Tandem wheel on the rear and the axle is wider than a MB axle.

Greg

Greenhorn
03-31-2009, 12:35 PM
The rear forks are (were) drilled for a brake. One hole is still open, the other is welded over. I was planning on drilling out the covered hole and attaching the brake behind the wheel. I will be using road brakes. The trigger shifters/brake levers that came off the donor bike are the old type (pre-V-brake)---so they should work with road brakes.

Greenhorn
03-31-2009, 02:32 PM
GH - I agree with Trikeman, you can always move parts from bike to bike. What is the gearing on your new crankset and what gearing are you putting on the rear?

I'm liking the look of your bike. I find myself looking forward to the next installment and how much your confidence is growing.:jester: Way to go!

Greg

The cranks are Sugino XD2 48x36x25 165mm. The rear wheel has an old 7 speed cassette. I will prob buy an new one from nashbar.

Greenhorn
04-05-2009, 03:09 PM
Update:

Last weekend I had sanded and rewelded the main joint and installed the rear triangle. Apparently, I took too long on one side of the joint because this week I discovered the boom was coming off at an angle. After many nights fighting with the car jack (great tool btw) i shifted the rear forks so everything lines up. because I has already welded the rear triangle, it looks a little off--but only if you look really hard.

With everything finally lined up, I installed some old 1.5 hybrid tires. The front tire does no spin freely in the front forks because it is not wide enough, so they are not functional. But installing them helped with the alignment. I think I should be ok with 1.0 inch tires as the 1.5 just almost clears.

i went to menards and bought tools for a diy headset press---long bolt, 2 big washers, two nuts and two brass brushings. It worked great. i installed the headset yesterday.

I also began fabricating the mount for my seat. I had a hard time welding the T-joints and had to redo them a few times. I wanted to use a QR bolt through the mount, but it was not quite long enough, so I used a standard hex bolt and washers. I am going to cut down the mount so it is not so wide. Also, I am going to round off the top edges on the outside brackets so the inside bracket can pivot fore and aft.

I am still working on figuring out how to do the handlbars and still have not found a good solution.

Anyways.....here are some progress pics.

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2409.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2410.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2412.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2411.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2413.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2414.jpg


I want the handlebars to be close to my chest so my elbows can rest at my sides. I know the tiller effect is greater with the handlebars lowered, but I have short arms and if I place them higher, I will look like an ape and wont be able to fully turn them

GregLWB
04-05-2009, 08:13 PM
Update:

I want the handlebars to be close to my chest so my elbows can rest at my sides. I know the tiller effect is greater with the handlebars lowered, but I have short arms and if I place them higher, I will look like an ape and wont be able to fully turn them

GH - Is it going to have tilt steering? It is looking good. I wish I had thought of the way you are standing the bike up. I have been leaning it against stuff or trying to hold it up while bolting stuff on.:dunce2:

I think its cool how different the bikes that you, me and comreich are turning out when we started with the same plans.:jester: That is the best thing about building our own because when we are done it is ours.

Greg

Greenhorn
04-05-2009, 08:32 PM
By "tilt steering", do you mean the hadlebars will pivot up and down? I am not quite sure how the steering will work out yet and am still playing around with ideas. My latest is to do similar to what is in the picture but have the stem facing the opposite direction.

i agree about everyone's bikes looking a little different. That is what is enjoyable about this is that there are 10 ways to skin a cat, and everyone here figures out how to solve problems different ways.

Greenhorn
04-05-2009, 08:35 PM
fyi---progress may halt in a few weeks. I am moving in with SWMBO and that is taking up most of my time


.......


I hope to have the bike done, test-ridden, and painted by june. I do this ride every year in Milwaukee called the Fat Tire Tour. It is an all-day pub crawl on bikes throughout the whole city. a lot of people like to show of their creations/custon bikes there. i hope to be able to ride my highroller this year.

GregLWB
04-05-2009, 08:36 PM
By "tilt steering", do you mean the hadlebars will pivot up and down?


Yep, I kind of liked how it looked the way you were holding it.:)

Greg

comreich
04-06-2009, 11:19 AM
It has been fun to watch the progress on all three bikes :) I've got time tonight to work on mine again, so I'll post some more pics later. I'll leave the gory details for then as well.

Greenhorn, your build is looking really sharp -- good work. I don't remember if you mentioned this before or not, but any thoughts on the color? Mine is destined to be black, but I'd love to fake out the look of wound carbon fibre to imitate a Carbent. No way my bike weighs 20lbs, but it could at least look sort of like it :)

Greenhorn
04-06-2009, 11:46 AM
but any thoughts on the color?

Either some metallic blue like Greg's or plain white. I already have a black bike as well as a silver one.

GregLWB
04-06-2009, 11:59 AM
any thoughts on the color? Mine is destined to be black, but I'd love to fake out the look of wound carbon fibre to imitate a Carbent.

comreich - I know it won't look like carbon fibre but have you seen the texture of Rust-Oleum Hammer Coat paint. It might be worth your while to pick up a can of the black and spray it on something and see if you like it. It's also really durable. I painted a wheel barrow with it and after 6 years of heavy use it still is in pretty good shape.:jester:

Greg

GregLWB
04-06-2009, 12:07 PM
Either some metallic blue like Greg's or plain white. I already have a black bike as well as a silver one.

I'm guess I'm sort of like Henry Ford - "you can get a bike in any color you want as long as it's black," uh, I mean BLUE.:jester:

I saw your post and realizes that although I've had bike that were mostly a different color, I have ridden 10 different bikes and they all had blue on them either as the main color or as the trim color. LOL. The only one that wasn't was my first bike, an Orangish/Gold Schwinn Stingray that my dad gave me in 1968.

Greg

comreich
04-06-2009, 12:22 PM
See, my trike is Ford-New Holland Tractor Blue (entirely coincidental to the fact that my Father-in-Law spent 35 years at New Holland); my TE Clone is Red; my DF is white, my old mountain bike -- now part of my high racer -- was blue; my daughter's bike is grey/black; and my son's trike will be a lighter blue. So I wanted something different :) The other option was tiger orange, but my wife thought that it was a bit too attention grabbing. As if a high-racer recumbent was somehow nondescript <rofl>.

Greg, the hammered effect would be kind of cool, but since I already bought the paint I'll give the gloss black a go. I also made a bit of a tactical error in that I bought some sticker paper to print out a name for my bike like others have. Unfortunately I bought white stuff instead of the transparent, so it will look silly on the black. Oh well, it will still be useful for the tailbox.

Greenhorn
04-14-2009, 12:05 AM
Lots of stuff going on right now, so not a whole lot of time to finish the bike....but i am slowly progressing.

I need some help on handlebar setup. i cannot figure out how best to attach this and make it pivot. i though of welding washers to the end of the seat post and then clamping around the existing stem clamp...but i dont know if it will hold. The handbars weigh about 3 lbs.

I need some zombie inspiration.


http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2433.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2439.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2440.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2434.jpg




Also, do any of you think this will be a problem? If you look at the shifter on the left, you can see it is missing a piece. It does not appear to be shorn off, but I cannot find anthing that looks like it fits there.

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2445.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2448.jpg

gbbwolf
04-14-2009, 12:35 AM
Looks like part of the cable adjusting piece is gone on the one shifter.

Should be like a black screw in piece that the ferrule sits in on the cable housing.

If not an adjustable piece it should still have the piece for the cable end to sit in.

Nelson

TheKid
04-14-2009, 02:10 AM
On the part of the gooseneck you cut off, weld a washer on each side. Grind a little off each side of the green gooseneck until the washers slide over it, then weld washers to each side. Slide the neck with the bars on, and use a bolt and a wing nut to secure them. You'll be able to pivot the bars to any position for riding and getting on and off the bike. Or, you could copy RR's tilt steering on his blog.
As Nelson said, the shifter is missing the adjuster. The rear shifter usually doesn't have one, because rear deraillers have them. However, frohn deraillers usually don't have adjusters, so the adjuster is on the shifter. If you don't want to change the shifter, you can use an adjuster from another shifter. Unscrew the adjuster until it comes out completely. Don't lose the spring. To replace, push the inner liner all the way into the adjusting nut and screw it back in. Here's what you need:

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z66/edpol_photos/100_0255Small.jpg

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z66/edpol_photos/100_0252Small.jpg

Greenhorn
04-14-2009, 09:54 AM
On the part of the gooseneck you cut off, weld a washer on each side. Grind a little off each side of the green gooseneck until the washers slide over it, then weld washers to each side. Slide the neck with the bars on, and use a bolt and a wing nut to secure them. You'll be able to pivot the bars to any position for riding and getting on and off the bike. Or, you could copy RR's tilt steering on his blog.



Just to make sure I understand...you are saying I should cut off the end of the black seat post and weld washers to either side; then cut off the green stem clamp and weld 2 more washers to whats left of the stem and join all 4the washers with a bolt and wingnut?

Did I misunderstand?


What I was thinking of doing was keeping the green stem and black seatpost intact; welding washers on either side of the seat post attachment--as the arc of the seat clamp attachment is close to the arc of the stem clamp; then sliding the washers over the opening on the green stemp clamp and securing with a bolt through the middle. I was worried the weight of the handlebars and shifters would cause it to fall down, esp. on bumps.

TheKid
04-14-2009, 11:54 AM
What I was thinking of doing was keeping the green stem and black seatpost intact; welding washers on either side of the seat post attachment--as the arc of the seat clamp attachment is close to the arc of the stem clamp; then sliding the washers over the opening on the green stemp clamp and securing with a bolt through the middle. I was worried the weight of the handlebars and shifters would cause it to fall down, esp. on bumps

We think alike. That's exactly what I meant. If the nut is tightened securely, it shouldn't move, especially with the serrated inside curve.

rickairmed
04-15-2009, 01:20 AM
It has been fun to watch the progress on all three bikes :) I've got time tonight to work on mine again, so I'll post some more pics later. I'll leave the gory details for then as well.

Greenhorn, your build is looking really sharp -- good work. I don't remember if you mentioned this before or not, but any thoughts on the color? Mine is destined to be black, but I'd love to fake out the look of wound carbon fibre to imitate a Carbent. No way my bike weighs 20lbs, but it could at least look sort of like it :)


Comreich if you want a carbon fiber look heres the trick :D. You need to get some cheesecloth a can of silver paint and a can of black paint and a can of clear. Step one paint the frame silver . Step 2 wrap the frame with the cheesecloth after the silver dries the neater you wrap it the better it will turn out . Step three shoot it with the black paint ( Light coats very light coats. Step 4 carefully remove the cheesecloth . Step 4 shoot it with clear this will actually make a good looking fake carbon fiber look :D.


Rick

Greenhorn
04-16-2009, 01:25 AM
Well, nothing like 2 days of wasted time learning one does not understand the laws of physics.

My initial design for the back seat braces will not work. remember the front underseat mount pivots. The idea was to use two rectangular brackets welded to a plate drilled into the back of the seat at a 90 degree angle to "push" the seat forward, as it pivots on the botton...like this:

http://www.optima-cycles.nl/main/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/d2c566b04fbfaafd715df24417edb964.jpg

Instead of the channel like in the picture, i drilled 4 equally spaced holes in the brackets and a single hole in the seat support

i dont know what i did wrong, but attaching the brackets to the seat at a 90degree angle and then trying to move the brackets on a straight plane on the seat support does not work. when the seat pivots, the brackets need to move in an arc along the path of travel. this means that either the angle it attaches to the seat has to change, or there nees to be slot in the shape of an arc on the seat support.


i can't figure out how Optima overcomes this problem.

so now i am back to the drawing board.

GregLWB
04-16-2009, 01:36 AM
Instead of the channel like in the picture, i drilled 4 equally spaced holes in the brackets and a single hole in the seat support

i dont know what i did wrong, but attaching the brackets to the seat at a 90degree angle and then trying to move the brackets on a straight plane on the seat support does not work. when the seat pivots, the brackets need to move in an arc along the path of travel. this means that either the angle it attaches to the seat has to change, or there nees to be slot in the shape of an arc on the seat support.


i can't figure out how Optima overcomes this problem.

so now i am back to the drawing board.

GH - Look at the picture close. I don't think theirs is mounted at exactly 90 degrees. It looks like it is mounted just below the curve and maybe that slightly different angle allows for what you are trying to do.

I would make your mounts and attach the slots to the frame and move them the way you think they need to and then figure out that angle to the seat.

Another idea might be to use rods and a swivel clamp that is attached to the frame.

I don't know if any of that made sense but I hope it sparks some creative solution for you!:jester:

Greg

Odd Man Out
04-16-2009, 01:42 AM
Hey Greenhorn
Next time could you post a bit higher resolution picture??? It was a bit small for me, I had to squint...:jester::jester::jester:

trikeman
04-16-2009, 07:16 AM
I had to squint to see that tiny picture, as well, but it looks like on the Optima the adjustment is almost nil anyway. I am not even sure why they bothered. I can't imagine they got more than a few degrees one way or the other with it.

comreich
04-16-2009, 09:27 AM
Greenhorn, if you take a look at Optima's picture of their Lynx (http://www.optima-cycles.nl/main/en/modellen/15.html?Itemid=27) you'll get a bit better idea of what their doing -- although it may not be enough even then. The adjustable part is a saddle that slides along the bolts in the main tube. The difficult part (because I'm assuming this from the picture) is that the saddle also slides up and down the seat a little bit to allow for the change in angles.

You may want to drop Optima a note asking if they would mind sending a closeup of the upper seat adjustment just you understand better how it works. Posing the same question at BROL might also get you some pics or a better explanation.

The way I got around this on my lowracer is to have two small fixed tabs on the seat and then seat supports (about 5" long) that were bolted to them. The supports had three or four holes drilled in them to provide the angle adjustment, and these holes mated with a tube on the frame to provide the support.

Greenhorn
04-16-2009, 10:30 AM
The way I got around this on my lowracer is to have two small fixed tabs on the seat and then seat supports (about 5" long) that were bolted to them. The supports had three or four holes drilled in them to provide the angle adjustment, and these holes mated with a tube on the frame to provide the support.


Ahhhh.....so the seat support tabs moves in a straight plane relative to the boom, and then the seat tabs pivot off the seat support tabs? ... I think I get it. Brilliant!

http://comreich.ods.org/~reich/lowracer/2009-02-22%20lowracer.jpg

I already have the longer tabs with adjusting holes (mine are 4 inches) and the plate to screw into the back of the seat. So, all I need to do now is to weld two more smaller tabs on the plate that screws into the seat and drill a hole so these smaller tabs attach to the seat support tabs.

The one thing I have learned about myself with this project is that for some reason, I tend to come up with very complex solutions to simple problems that wind up causing more problems than they solve. Your method seems pretty simple. Thanks. This just saved me probably a full day of redesign and fabrication.

comreich
04-16-2009, 11:18 AM
Sure wish I could take credit for the idea, but I stole it from 25hz :) The way I got everything to line up was to bolt the supports to the seat tube and then bolt the supports to the seat tabs *before* I welded the tabs to the seat. This way I could make sure the seat was centered on the frame. Tack the tabs, disassemble everything and then finish the welds. And for a little added strength, I welded a small tube between the two seat tabs so that I could use a single bolt to pin everything together.

And glad to be of help. Sure looking forward to seeing your bike as it progresses.

Greenhorn
04-16-2009, 11:48 PM
Ok....Here is what I got done after work before I broke my drill bit and the neighbors yelled at me. As you can see, I still need to drill holes through the seat tabs:

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2449.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2455.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2457.jpg


Here is how much room I have if I would use longer seat support tabs

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2453.jpg





Oh.....and here is proof that I can be just a big a slob as the rest of you



http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2469.jpg

Greenhorn
04-18-2009, 01:05 PM
Well.....back to square 1 on the handlebar set up. turns out that the seat clamp on the seat tube is aluminum.......:(

I tried drilling a hole in the stem clamp and bolting the seat clamp part of the seattube to it...but I kept gettng too much play and it was impossible to adjust or make it pivot.

Greenhorn
04-20-2009, 10:17 AM
I "think" I came up with a solution to the handlebar/tiller issue. I took a piece from the old fork steerer tube and cut it off and driller a hole through. I then inserted a bolt through the hole and through the groove on the seat support clamp part of the seattube I am using for my tiller. I weldeed the bolt to the cylinder and plan to weld the other end of it directly to the shaft of the seat tube where it joins the aluminum. This will allow the tiller to rotate smoothly on top of the existing fork clamp. Last night I frabricated 2 rectangular "swingarms" with the edges rounded off that tonight I will weld onto the cylinder that is now welded to the seat tube. I will drill a whole though the other end of both swing arms and the swingarms will slide over the stem clamp, where they can be secured with a quick release. Loosening the quick release will allow the cylinder to rotate around the fork clamp and raise/lower the handlebars.

I hacked off some more of the seat this weekend as it was too tall and would hit my helmet. I also cut off some of the front end of the boom, being very conservative. You can see the line where the final cut will be below (and even that is very conservtive--with my short legs, I probably only need a 16 inch front end boom). I also cleaned and installed the rear derailluer.

My major items of frame fabrication left are: 1) install the handlebar/tiller system; 2) cut and weld the bottom bracket carriage; 3) clean up the welds; 4) drill a hole through the brake mount of the rear fork (as one was covered during the welding process); and 5) apply the foam padding to the seat.

I think I am going to try and use 2 layers of those rubber floor mats I bought at HF for the base of the padding. I think I will cut it in sections to leave the seat screws accessible if I ever need to get to them.

Anyway...here is what she looks like now. Not a whole lot different than before, but she is looking leaner and cleaner after being trimmed up this weekend.

I hope she turns out ok...as she is looking pretty cool so far.

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2472.jpg?t=1240237040

Radical Brad
04-20-2009, 01:38 PM
You are definitely nearing the sign line, great stuff!

Brad

comreich
04-20-2009, 03:17 PM
Definitely looking good there Greenhorn. Shan't be long now. I think all the difficult choices are behind you :)

GregLWB
04-20-2009, 06:50 PM
I really like the lines of your bike. You're getting really close now.

I've seen some of your posts over on BROL. Have they been welcoming to you or do you feel "ignored/less than' like I did when I posted? I sure enjoy the comraderie and support I have felt from all on this site.

I can't wait to see your bike done and hear your ride reports!:jester:

Greg

Greenhorn
04-20-2009, 08:00 PM
I really like the lines of your bike. You're getting really close now.

I've seen some of your posts over on BROL. Have they been welcoming to you or do you feel "ignored/less than' like I did when I posted? I sure enjoy the comraderie and support I have felt from all on this site.

I can't wait to see your bike done and hear your ride reports!:jester:

Greg


1. Thanks for the kind words---I'm getting excited about nearing the end. I like the lines too, except the rear triangle. I really wanted a 90 degree right angle at the seat support/seat stay joint, but oh well. Sometimes when I get into "work mode" i sacrifice my design ideas to get things done.

2. A few posters at BROL have been helpful--particularly the guy from Milw who does the TE clones, but overall there seems to be an aire of snobbery over there. Its almost like you need a degree in mechanical engineering to post over there, you know what I mean? Unless you have some fancy cad drawing and are doing a homemade carbon fiber composite, no one wants to talk to you.

3. I said it before and I'll say it again, the people on this site are the best group of strangers a friend could have :) When I have felt like giving up, everyone here urged me on to keep going. I also like how everyone here truly is interested in everyone else's designs and sharing ideas rather than just posting a "look what I did!"

I do, however, feel a little behind the eight ball, seing as its been almost 6 months since I started on this. Everyone else here seems to be able to move so fast.

TheKid
04-20-2009, 08:11 PM
Oh.....and here is proof that I can be just a big a slob as the rest of you


Maybe not as big, but good enough.
And don't worry that it took six months. Some of us take even longer. My tadpole took well over a year, only to be taken apart and redone for the fifth time, the DR was in the works for over a year, starting out as a single KC, and I have the Delta Hauler, which I've been working on for almost a year. Since 2005, I've started 5 projects and finished 3.

GregLWB
04-20-2009, 09:35 PM
I do, however, feel a little behind the eight ball, seing as its been almost 6 months since I started on this. Everyone else here seems to be able to move so fast.

GH - don't worry about the length of time. Remember, even though I just started with the frame building, I did everything but the frame on my current LWB and have been working on it and tweaking it to be what it has become for a year.:jester:

One bit of good advice I did see them give you at that other 'site' was to finish this build, ride it and then decide what you want your next build to be.:jester:

Greg

Greenhorn
04-21-2009, 11:33 AM
So I fabricated the flip-it mount last night. its very kludgy, ugly, and sloppy. Also, my long reach brakes arrived from nashbar yesterday and they do not reach the rims with the white 700cc threaded fork I have currently installed. I could jerry-rig an extension mount like sheldon brown suggests on his site, ..but that will only increase the kludgyness factor.


The brakes would would on the black 650cc threadless fork however.......


I may just go back to my previous straight tiller design with the threadless fork.

savarin
04-21-2009, 06:30 PM
but overall there seems to be an aire of snobbery over there. Its almost like you need a degree in mechanical engineering to post over there, you know what I mean? Unless you have some fancy cad drawing and are doing a homemade carbon fiber composite, no one wants to talk to you.

I've found that on a lot of bike forums which is why I love it here.



I do, however, feel a little behind the eight ball, seing as its been almost 6 months since I started on this. Everyone else here seems to be able to move so fast.

I'm jealous of that commitment myself but real life has this nasty habit of intruding into our hobbies and slowing everything down.
Us slow pokes get there eventually.

Greenhorn
04-25-2009, 09:09 PM
Not much to report, as I didn't get much done today. I went for an early am ride and got stuck in a thunderstorm 30 miles into the country---not cool.


I finished cutting and cleaning the seat. its a little off , but this is the best it is going to get.

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2494.jpg

for some reason everything is squeeking now when i sit on it---i hope this is just parts settling together and isnt indicative of future structual failure

Also, as you can see, daddy got a new set O shoes----i splurged and got some conti gatorskins. they are 1 1/8---the bike shop guy said they would work (although another lbs said not to go lower than 1.5---guess i will just have to try them out!)

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2495.jpg

I spent half the morning fabbing a drop bolt for the rear brake, only to find out that it wont work because the wheel needs to slide forward to slide out of the dropouts---so mounting the brake on the boom means I can't get the wheel out. I guess I will have to add a cross beam to the rear triangle. grrrrr


here is how i got the head set/stem to work. I cut a sleave (i cant remember from what) to slide over the steerer column and then clamped with a seat tube clamp. i then dropped a 1 inch threaded fork down the top and the expander nut holds it in place

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2498.jpg


and because i like posting pics---here are some parts I got. v-belt pulley; brakes; --and I found some old BB cups in my junk bin back at my apartment, so welding the bb should be ok.

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2500.jpg

newrider3
04-25-2009, 09:33 PM
How do you plan to adjust the headset preload with that stem setup?

GregLWB
04-25-2009, 10:39 PM
Not much to report, as I didn't get much done today. I went for an early am ride and got stuck in a thunderstorm 30 miles into the country---not cool.
and because i like posting pics---here are some parts I got. v-belt pulley; brakes; --and I found some old BB cups in my junk bin back at my apartment, so welding the bb should be ok.

At least you got to ride for 30 miles.:jester:

You need to move your junk bin closer to your workspace.:jester:

I see that you must be out of the doghouse, SWMBO left the door open so you could come in. ROFL!:jester:

I think that we're in for a flurry of activity from you. You got enough stuff to put on the bike now that you'll really get impatient. Can't wait to see your next progress.

Greg

Greenhorn
04-25-2009, 10:51 PM
How do you plan to adjust the headset preload with that stem setup?

Yeah--i know. No good solution. May just buy the Rans jam nut thingy for $20.

Greenhorn
04-30-2009, 09:34 AM
I'm not dead yet.....just crazy busy at work and with moving and wedding planning and all.....so not too much time to work on the bike. :( I am getting some stuff done though.


I got an initial version of my seat padding cut and glued, but it looks very ugly and flimsy, so I may start over. I cut my carriage brackets for the BB assembly last night and cut and fishmouthed the dearaileur tube from a donor bike last night. I hope to be able to grind and weld the BB assembly and deraileur tube this weekend.

I have a lot of small fixes/finishing to do.The holes for the seat mount were not even, so I have to ream out one side to lower it. I also have a lot of sanding to do to clean up the spot welds I did last weekend.

But I do see light at the end of the tunnel (very far off....but there):scooter:

Greenhorn
05-05-2009, 05:34 PM
I welded the seattube to the bottom bracket I bought from PoweronCycling. Even with the steel cups in, I managed to distort the bb shell somewhat. I had trouble removing the cups after welding but they came off The cups both still thread on and off, but they "catch" at a certain spots.

My concern is that if I managed to distort the shell just welding the seattube on, then I will probably do the same when welding on the thick carriage brackets. Anyone else have the same issue?

So, I guess my question is how best to minimize the possibility of distortion. I've read that heating up the thicker material helps. What heat setting do I use when welding? Do i set the welder for the thickness of the BB or for the thickness of the brackets?

I was planning on welding the brackets in stages, making tack welds in the center and then left and right edges--alternating sides to allow them to cool.

One other question I had is when welding joints is it better to weld at the actual seam (like cauking a bathtube) or try and weld towards the edge of one piece and let the pool "drip" so to speak into the seam?

trikeman
05-05-2009, 05:39 PM
I welded the seattube to the bottom bracket I bought from PoweronCycling. Even with the steel cups in, I managed to distort the bb shell somewhat. I had trouble removing the cups after welding but they came off The cups both still thread on and off, but they "catch" at a certain spots.

My concern is that if I managed to distort the shell just welding the seattube on, then I will probably do the same when welding on the thick carriage brackets. Anyone else have the same issue?

So, I guess my question is how best to minimize the possibility of distortion. I've read that heating up the thicker material helps. What heat setting do I use when welding? Do i set the welder for the thickness of the BB or for the thickness of the brackets?

I was planning on welding the brackets in stages, making tack welds in the center and then left and right edges--alternating sides to allow them to cool.

One other question I had is when welding joints is it better to weld at the actual seam (like cauking a bathtube) or try and weld towards the edge of one piece and let the pool "drip" so to speak into the seam?

When you are welding something thin to something thicker, its usually best to spend more time on the thicker piece, then just briefly wash over the thin piece and back to the thick where you pause longer. You have to watch the puddle and make sure the heat is high enough to melt both pieces, or you won't get fusion. Hope that helps.

I usually try to weld both sides of the joint, by moving from side to side. If you try to drip something, you are most likely not going to get penetration on the dripped piece.

Greenhorn
05-07-2009, 10:03 PM
Well....i got 10 hours combined sleep int he last 3 days. I;ve been runnin on nicotine and caffiene. Boss let me leave at a "normal" hour today (5:30). I was suppossed to keep packing for my move, but I needed to get stuff done on the bike. for some reason i got more accomplished in 3 hours than the last 3 weeks. I think the lack of sleep takes away my nervousness and lets me just get things done. here is what i got.

1. BB welded to seattube. As you can see I blew a hole in seat tube right where I need to mount the derailuer. I tried to fill and sand 3 times. This is the 4th. it doesn look pretty but I think it will hold.

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2532.jpg

2. welded the stem to the tiller. I haven't decided yet whether I am going to keep the mount up top as is or just weld on a clamp. i like being able to adjust the handlebars but the set-up in the picture seems too unstable.

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2529.jpg

3. I think i figured out a system for holding the headset. trouble is, the headset i have is dented so i can't really tell if this works. its 2 seat tube clamps. I couldnt find the bolt for the purple one, so i just substituted a wuick release for the picture.


http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2531.jpg


4. I am worried the bike is not tracking correctly....i supppose i can't really tell though until i get a real headset properly installed.

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2521.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2527.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2526.jpg


I am also starting to worry about heel strike clearance again (yes, I worry a lot).

anyways....i hope to work on the BB mount this weekend and maybe figure out how to attach the seat foam. I think i will glue the two slabs together and then put velcro on the bottom and on the seat

GregLWB
05-08-2009, 01:42 AM
Hey GH,

Dude, you're getting so close to going on your first test crash...I mean ride! I can't wait to see it in action. I think you're right about being tired and getting over your worries. It kind of works like that for me too.:jester:

Greg

Greenhorn
05-08-2009, 01:47 AM
Well, I kinda "rode" it this afternoon. For some ungodly reason (lack of sleep) I thought it would be a good idea to sit on the bike as it rolled down the driveway.....result was not pretty.

GregLWB
05-08-2009, 01:55 AM
Well, I kinda "rode" it this afternoon. For some ungodly reason (lack of sleep) I thought it would be a good idea to sit on the bike as it rolled down the driveway.....result was not pretty.

ROFLMBO!:jester: GH - you don't even have brakes attached yet! I thought you were going to get married? You need to keep yourself alive until the wedding or SWMBO will KILL you!:jester::jester:

Greg

savarin
05-08-2009, 05:43 AM
Well, I kinda "rode" it this afternoon. For some ungodly reason (lack of sleep) I thought it would be a good idea to sit on the bike as it rolled down the driveway.....result was not pretty.

Ha Ha Ha, do I know that feeling well. I trust no one was looking so they cant refer back to it at a delicate moment. :jester::jester:

jimFPU
05-08-2009, 08:00 AM
Well at least in the half-built stage that would be an excuse.

When I first got my Infinity, the first day I rode to work (5 miles) I didn't hit a light for 4.5 miles. Finally I had to stop and put my foot down at a light. When I did my leg didn't work!!! I fell right over, for no apparent reason!! Fortunately, there was only the car that had just left the light and he had turned away from me. My legs were like rubber that whole day, and it took a bit for me to get my bent legs...now I know what they meant...:1eye:

comreich
05-08-2009, 11:26 AM
Let's see, I've fallen twice on my high roller :) Both were slow speed falls, so nothing significant was hurt. The last was on Monday and I just toppled over as I ran out of steam trying to make a very low speed turn (~4mph) on the bike path. The first was another low speed turn trying to make it on to bike path (same area :() between two fence posts. So don't panic Greenhorn. It's all part of the learning curve.

Hey, if you want to see if it's tracking properly, somebody once suggested the puddle technique. Get your tires wet (by walking it through a puddle) and then watching the tracks of the tires. Ideally they should make one track.

Greenhorn
05-12-2009, 12:36 PM
Spent most of the weekend moving, but fit in a little bike work. I ground down the BB carriage brackets. They seem to fit snugly, although they are not a perfect "U" shape. One side is taller than the other.

Before welding, I thought it would be a good idea to double check crank clearance, etc. Well...turns out that as set up, my bike will have 1/2 inch of pedal overlapp--not good. I re-ran all of my numbers to figure out how this could have happened. It turned out, when I designed the bike, I failed to take into account that I would be using an adjustable seat raised 1.5 inches off the main boom. The way I wound up positioning the seat was that my butt was approx 2 inched farther back than planned. So I tore down the seat last night and re-drilled holes for the seat mounts 2 inches further back (so the seat would move 2 inches forward). Aside from the fact that my seat looks like swiss cheese now, I think it is ok. (I keep telling myself the holes are "ventilation shafts").

I think i am going to practice welding some of the thicker steel to some thinner material before attempting the BB weld. As mentioned, I am concerned over distorting the BB. I will likely give it a go this weekend.

Once the BB is welded, the only other welding is the chain idler mount, and capping off the ends.

I may be slow, but I hope to soon have a functioning bike. (this is been probably the longest build thread ever :) )

SWMBO thinks I am nuts because I spent like a 1/2 hour last night in the garage sitting on my 3/4 finished bike, staring up at the celing envisioning the completed build.

GregLWB
05-12-2009, 01:00 PM
I think i am going to practice welding some of the thicker steel to some thinner material before attempting the BB weld. As mentioned, I am concerned over distorting the BB. I will likely give it a go this weekend.

SWMBO thinks I am nuts because I spent like a 1/2 hour last night in the garage sitting on my 3/4 finished bike, staring up at the celing envisioning the completed build.

If you put some anti-seize (tip from Richie) on the BB cup threads and have both of your old cups installed while you do it the BB will take a lot of heat without distortion. I was worried about the same on my HR and doing it that way it turned out fine.:jester:

I have done the same thing. Whether contemplating riding it or sitting next to it trying to figure out how to make something work different. I have one advantage you don't though! My garage is not attached to the house and SWMBO rarely comes out there and even if she does the door might be locked!:surprised::jester::jester:

Greg

jimFPU
05-12-2009, 02:11 PM
I'm weird, I actually enjoy my wife being out in the build area with me...sometimes I'm just out there staring at the build(s) or the plans until I can see what it is I need to do, and I enjoy her company!

Sometimes that's when my best brainstorming occurs!!

Greenhorn
05-12-2009, 02:36 PM
If you put some anti-seize (tip from Richie) on the BB cup threads and have both of your old cups installed while you do it the BB will take a lot of heat without distortion. I was worried about the same on my HR and doing it that way it turned out fine.:jester:

I have done the same thing. Whether contemplating riding it or sitting next to it trying to figure out how to make something work different. I have one advantage you don't though! My garage is not attached to the house and SWMBO rarely comes out there and even if she does the door might be locked!:surprised::jester::jester:

Greg

Thanks... I forgot about that. Between moving, the wedding, and work, my brain can only retain so much info....apparently that bit was defragged to make room for additional data. :)

BTW---nice job on your latest build. Very classy

GregLWB
05-12-2009, 03:02 PM
Thanks... I forgot about that. Between moving, the wedding, and work, my brain can only retain so much info....apparently that bit was defragged to make room for additional data. :)

BTW---nice job on your latest build. Very classy

Thanks.:) Greg

GregLWB
05-12-2009, 03:05 PM
I'm weird, I actually enjoy my wife being out in the build area with me...sometimes I'm just out there staring at the build(s) or the plans until I can see what it is I need to do, and I enjoy her company!

Sometimes that's when my best brainstorming occurs!!

Jim - Not weird. I enjoy my wife's company too - she doesn't like garage type stuff and the lock on the door..... well that's mostly so she and the kids can't remove my tools to the house where they are never to be found again!:jester:

Greg

savarin
05-12-2009, 06:32 PM
Jim - Not weird. I enjoy my wife's company too - she doesn't like garage type stuff and the lock on the door..... well that's mostly so she and the kids can't remove my tools to the house where they are never to be found again!:jester:

Greg

There is a saying in our house when anyone is looking for anything:-
"Wheres the (insert appropriate tool here)"
to which the reply is "Ina box"
My wife tidies up by placing anything not immediately required away somewhere in a box with everything else.
No one has any idea where it will end up.:confused:

Greenhorn
05-12-2009, 06:44 PM
Yes. SWMBO and I have very different organizational styles. When she sees something out of place, it goes in what I call the "black hole" drawer--never to be seen from again (although it may magically reappear inside the belly of the evil couch beast). I, on the other hand, follow my grandmother's sage advice: "A place for everything and everything in its place." We both drive each other nuts.

Greenhorn
05-18-2009, 09:54 AM
I took a break from moving this weekend to try and line up my bottom bracket carriage for welding. In the process I noticed that my derailuer tube was distorted when I welded it to the BB. As I mentioned before, when I welded the seat tube onto the BB shell, I needed to fill the hole for the water bottle mount and I blew right through it. I had a hard time filling the hole and after 4 attempts at welding washers/granding/sanding, this is what I got:

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2532.jpg

This isn't the best picture, but the tube warped in the direction of the weld. This weekend I lined up the BB on the support tabs, which I clamped to a foot-long section of old boom-material (per the instructions). When I line it up, the end of the seatube shown in the picture was at the edge of the end of the boom section.

Once, again, I need the sage advice of my fellow zombies.

1. Will this be a problem when I mount the derailuer hanger? Given that the derailuer hanger will be mounted roughly in the area of where I had to fill in the hole (i.e. the messed up area), the distortion is not as severe at this point.

So, can I just leave it as is, or will it pose a problem when setting up the high/low limits on my front derailuer?

2. If it is a problem, what is the best way to fix it? My initial, albeit, caveman-type solution was to just dump a bunch of weld at the end of the seat tube on the opposite side of the distortion to try and pull it back.

Good idea or bad?


3. If bad, do I have any other options short of chopping off the seat tube and starting over?


Thanks.

GregLWB
05-18-2009, 10:05 AM
This isn't the best picture, but the tube warped in the direction of the weld. This weekend I lined up the BB on the support tabs, which I clamped to a foot-long section of old boom-material (per the instructions). When I line it up, the end of the seatube shown in the picture was at the edge of the end of the boom section.

Once, again, I need the sage advice of my fellow zombies.

1. Will this be a problem when I mount the derailuer hanger? Given that the derailuer hanger will be mounted roughly in the area of where I had to fill in the hole (i.e. the messed up area), the distortion is not as severe at this point.

So, can I just leave it as is, or will it pose a problem when setting up the high/low limits on my front derailuer?

2. If it is a problem, what is the best way to fix it? My initial, albeit, caveman-type solution was to just dump a bunch of weld at the end of the seat tube on the opposite side of the distortion to try and pull it back.

Good idea or bad?


3. If bad, do I have any other options short of chopping off the seat tube and starting over?


Thanks.


GH - on mine when I welded the tube on the BB like you mine was angling slightly off to one side. I used an even more caveman like fix than you suggest - I put a tube inside of it and clamped the bottom bracket with the cups installed in my vise and used the tube for leverage to gently tweak it back straight. It worked great.:)

There isn't a lot of pressure on that tube once the bike is together and when you cap the tube it should be plenty strong. Just grind/sand down your welds so they are closer to the tube size and you should be able to clamp on to it just fine.:) My new guy two cents.:jester:

Greg

The Raider
05-18-2009, 02:08 PM
An easy fix that guarantees good results is to cut/grind a pie shaped wedge out of the long side. The cut should go almost all the way around the tube so that you have left just a little piece that will act like a hinge. Push or tap the tube to perfect alignment and then do a little tack. Keep pushing and tapping and tacking. Do the final pass in short segments to avoid warping it again.

Or, making it over will certainly result in a nicer looking job. Not much more work either. Jerry

alecw35
05-18-2009, 05:20 PM
you could get an e mount deraileur on the bb shell. It has tabs that rest on the tube

savarin
05-18-2009, 05:56 PM
I saw on an old Tailwind that the derailleur post was welded to a flat bar before being welded to the bottom bracket.
There was sufficient flex in that straight piece to allow a little bending to get it in the right position/angle to fit any derailleur curve but not enough flex to bend in use. I always thought it was a simple solution.

Greenhorn
05-18-2009, 11:36 PM
I decided to chop the tube below the poor weld area and weld on another tube. It turned out ok---although it is only 6 inches long.

Greenhorn
05-20-2009, 11:53 PM
This has to be the most difficult part of the build so far. I cant get a feel for the penetration needed on the 3/16 steel and my welds look like crap. I am not even hitting the bb most of the time out of fear of warping it.

I gave up tonight after fighting for 2 hours. also, despite clamping, for some reason, one of the tabs is off center, so when I clamp it around the boom, one side raises up.

very frustated and wondering if i can even finish this thing. SWMBO said that she expects me to roll down the driveway and have the wheels fall off--

anyways, here is what i managed (not) to accomplish tonight.

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2552.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2549.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2545.jpg


http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2544.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/100_2551.jpg

Mitdan
05-21-2009, 04:14 AM
[QUOTE=Greenhorn;24766]This has to be the most difficult part of the build so far. I cant get a feel for the penetration needed on the 3/16 steel and my welds look like crap. I am not even hitting the bb most of the time out of fear of warping it.

I gave up tonight after fighting for 2 hours. also, despite clamping, for some reason, one of the tabs is off center, so when I clamp it around the boom, one side raises up.

very frustated and wondering if i can even finish this thing. SWMBO said that she expects me to roll down the driveway and have the wheels fall off--

anyways, here is what i managed (not) to accomplish tonight.



Greenhorn, I asked some of the welders at work about a similar situation. They told me to set the heat for and strike the arc on the thicker metal and then weave the puddle back and forth, spending more time on the thicker metal. "WARNING" This might be a case of the blind leading the blind:rolleyes4:.

alecw35
05-21-2009, 04:23 AM
would it have been an idea to weld the deraileur tube with the cable stop on the back of the tube pointing up to the mech cable clamp.

Greenhorn
05-21-2009, 08:29 AM
Greenhorn, I asked some of the welders at work about a similar situation. They told me to set the heat for and strike the arc on the thicker metal and then weave the puddle back and forth, spending more time on the thicker metal. "WARNING" This might be a case of the blind leading the blind:rolleyes4:.


This is a case where I know what to do...i am just having trouble doing it----hence the frustration.:taz:

mkane53
05-21-2009, 04:10 PM
It can certainly be frustrating at times. Especially when you're just starting out and you have trouble "seeing" the puddle. I may help to clean the window on your welding mask.

I've found that changing the orientation can sometimes help. I (and I think most folks) tend to be able to get a better bead going side to side rather than up and down; usually it's easier pulling it from left to right for right-handers and the oppostite for Lefties. Also, if you can secure the assembly at an angle so that the 3/16" plate is almost horizontal (parallel to the floor) with the plate closer to you than the bottom bracket, the arc will probably want to stay on 3/16" plate and you can sort of push the arc up toward the bottom bracket once you stabilize the arc a little. Whatever direction you find yourself most able to hold an arc is the way you want to orient it. Give yourself the best possible chance of success.

I'm not sure why, but when I'm having trouble holding a steady arc, changing the orientation to the way I'm most comfortable can make a HUGE difference.

Maybe practice for a bit on some scrap till you get your confidence back. Hang in there. You'll get it.

Patrike
05-21-2009, 08:38 PM
I have to agree with Mike -- orientation for me is critical -- if I can't see where my weld is going to end once I start the arc - I stop and I reposition. When I don't, I usually go off. I was doing my second handle for the stoker seat last night on the Kyoto - like the first I tacked it in 3 spots and then I had to position it 4 times to weld portions of it at a time- I screwed up a bit on one part and had to go back over it-no big deal.

Greenhorn
05-21-2009, 11:04 PM
Well, I figured out what the problem was. I forgot to mention that the power kept going off last night. I though I had just overheated the machine. Today when i started, same thing. So i unplugged the welder from the wall outlet, put it on a chair, and plugged it into the outlet in the garage ceiling for the electric door. Welding went MUCH MUCH smoother. (Cleaning my hood lens and repositioning also helped).


I "think" (knock on wood) I got this right now. However, it is still hard to tell. The cups come out ok, but the drive side sticks at one point.


Assuming this is ok...i think i am on the home stretch. The only welding left to do is the idlers, capping the ends of the boom and capping the deraileur tube

So, does this look like I got good penetration?


http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/BikeBuild_3827.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/BikeBuild_3830.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/BikeBuild_3847.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/BikeBuild_3850.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/BikeBuild_3839.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/BikeBuild_3842.jpg

Thanks for all the "hand-holding" guys---much appreciated.

John Lewis
05-22-2009, 05:39 AM
Hi Greenhorn,

It looks like it will hold but not sure how good a penetration you got.

It seems to me that perhaps because you were worried about warping and damaging the BB tube you didn't really allow the weld onto it enough. Most of the weld seems to be up on the the tabs.

I found that if I screwed in the end cups with plenty of antiseize I could weld away, get it nice and hot and still have no problems. What I did though was to weld about 1/2" at a time after I tacked up. I welded 1/2" at the centre then one end and finally the other. Perhaps you are trying to be too careful and hence the problem you had. Keep at it and you will win in the end. Your angle grinder is your friend. If you are unhappy, grind it back and do it again.

John Lewis

Patrike
05-22-2009, 07:31 AM
I think it will hold, it's just not a pretty weld. I have seen worse hold. Looks like you are not moving away from the weld allowing back pooling and not moving back and forth to cover the curve. As you try to weld around a curve you will have a tendency to turn the welder head 90deg to the face which is wrong - thus you have to reposition. If your doing all that then it will just be about more practice! If it was really easy then it would not be as satisfying at the end. Challenges make us grow and let us appreciate our accomplishments. As the Brits would say - stiff upper lip and all that :sweatdrop:

trikeman
05-22-2009, 07:58 AM
It definitely sounds like your original circuit was a weak one. Until I made myself an extension cord to a better 20 Amp service my garage welding was like that too. These little 120v welders really do need a good strong circuit to function well.

I have to agree that fear of warping the BB has you getting some cold welds because you are afraid to put any heat where it needs to go. There is probably enough good weld to hold though. On that note, when I built my DW, I used a BB off a rear suspension mountain bike. Instead of cutting off the tabs that were used to mount the rear triangle on the donor, I just used those tabs to mount it. That meant the only welding I had to do to mount it was on the tabs and not the BB itself. I hope that description is clear because unfortunately my benefactor who provided me with free web space and lots of bandwidth has stopped paying his hosting bill, so I will have to make alternate arrangements to post pictures. I sure I hope I backed up all my pictures somewhere

trikeman
05-22-2009, 08:24 AM
This picture I stole from The Dude's StreetFox build and added some comments to illustrates what I mean about not cutting off the tabs if you want to use a rear suspension BB on a non-suspension build.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3397/3553332387_58f6a75c44.jpg?v=0

Having those pre-welded tabs still there makes your life a lot easier.

Greenhorn
05-22-2009, 09:29 AM
I looked at it again this morning, and I think I will give each side another pass tonight. I've got the inside coated with antisieze and I've got a 3/16 bar running through the cut-off boom section to try and act as a heat sink.

Part of the reason why it looks ugly is because I was not really laying beads. I was just stacking spot welds. I will try and fill in the "valleys" where it looks like i didn't get a whole lot of contact with the BB

On the plus side, I can definately see heat scoring on the BB

savarin
05-22-2009, 09:37 AM
I've never had a problem with the bottom brackets.
If they are out of round its simple to find the wide part and give it a clout to true it up or squeeze it in the vice a bit at a time till the ends can screw in.
If the ends are tight I use grease and a bigger spanner, screw in and back off, clean, screw in more and so forth.

Greenhorn
05-23-2009, 10:31 PM
http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/BikeBuild_4106.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/BikeBuild_4118.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/BikeBuild_4101.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/BikeBuild_4096.jpg

trikeman
05-23-2009, 10:47 PM
Looks strong enough to me. I'd ride it.

John Lewis
05-24-2009, 05:28 AM
That looks a lot better. I don't think you'll have any problem now. That looks good and strong.

John Lewis

savarin
05-24-2009, 06:09 AM
Now thats heaps better. Get them all like that and you will have no problems.

mkane53
05-24-2009, 08:07 AM
Oh yeah, that's the ticket. Terrific work.

Radical Brad
05-24-2009, 12:51 PM
That's a fine string of beads Sir.

Brad

Patrike
05-24-2009, 01:58 PM
I liked it better the old way - more character! :jester:

Good works mate!

Greenhorn
05-24-2009, 04:42 PM
Thanks.

Once I found a decent outlet, it wasn't that bad. I just said, well, if it warps, it warps, thats why i bought a spare--and I just welded like all the other parts, and it came out good.


I can see the light in the tunnel now.

Greenhorn
06-07-2009, 12:14 AM
Well..today was the first weekend I haven't been moving, sick, working, or doing wedding stuff for almost 2 months.

I got a lot done today. Chopped off the front (a little too close for comfort), welded shut the hole in the rear forks with a washer, capped off abd welded the derailuer tube, welded on the mount for the idler, did misc. spot welding and touch-up sanding, installed a new headset, cut down the seat a bit and installed a T bar underneath for support, and put it all back together.

Ongoing issues are:
1. My fork apparently was machined for a JIS crown, so the crown from my new headset wouldn't work. Also, my new headset had oversized lower bearings and the bottom cup would not fit in (after 3 tries)--so, I used an old cup. I installed the headset and set the pre-load per my other post--and it worked quite well.

However, when pressing the cups, I noticed that the underside of the headtube is off kilter. I don't understand this, as the top of it is level and when everything is put together the bike stays level. But, you can definately see that the bottom cup is off a bit. Maybe it got deformed when I welded it??? Hopefully I can have a bike shop face the bottom of it to level it off.

Also, the seal ring for the fork crown/lower bearing is history. Right now, it has no seal ring---I hope the seal ring is just to keep out the weather and not functional...

2. Because I am using a road brake, I am going to have to mount the return idler way up front by the forks to raise it above the brake arm

On that note, how far out do you mount the return idler? Obviously it needs to be out a bit farther than the drive side idler. Is there a recommended length, or just trial and error?

3. even with the T brace under the seat, it still flexes a whole lot when I shift my weight forward to stand up. I am worried about bending the seat down.

4. I had some measuring issues with the bottom bracket mount. One of the holes is much too close to the edge of the bracket (about 1/16) for my liking.

5. I noticed that wen I welded on the handlebar clamp, it warped to one side. So one end of my handlebars is a tad forward than the other. Nothing major---but it still bugs me.

---

I am going to take the bottom bracket to the bike shop tommorrow to have my new bottom bracket and crankset mounted (the one in the picture is from an old donor bike and the axle wont fit with the new crankset.


Anyways....here are some progress pics. ....I am so excited to take her out, I can't stand it!


http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5877.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5873.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5872.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5878.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/_IGP5877.jpg


I have to go make nicy nice with SWMBO now, seeing as I spent 10 hours in the garage today.......

comreich
06-07-2009, 12:49 AM
Looking really good there Greenhorn. Won't be long now.

John Lewis
06-07-2009, 04:50 AM
You've certainly come a long way Greenhorn. Won't be too long now I think.

Why don't you make a small wood block spacer to fit between the front part of the seat and the boom. Screw it to the seat with a couple of woodscrews. That would stop the flexing.

If the bolt is too close to the edge you could perhaps build up the metal with some weld and grind it smooth.

John Lewis

mkane53
06-07-2009, 08:40 AM
Wow, you're going to be riding in NO time at all.

Q2 - Just use trial and error. You'll probably actually WANT it pretty close to the fork anyway, since the brake cable will be moving toward the chain line when you turn right. It MAY anyway. And you'll need to play with it to make sure the idler isn't so so far outside that the chain rubs your leg.

Q3 - I like John's solution. Simple elegant and effective
Q4 - If the bolt is tightened 1/16" is plenty; there are two bolts and they'll be working in compression (pulling the tabs together because of the tightening). Unless it gets loose and slops around (and you'll know that because the crank will be wandering) there's very little chance that a mere mortal could stress it enough to work through that 1/16". You can add a washer to spread the load out if you're going to be loaning your bike to Lance Armstrong and think he might be able to over-stress it. And if it really, really bothers you, do like John says and run a couple of beads on the thin side to add metal and grind them smooth.
Q5 - You'll get used to it. You can always bend the handlebars slightly once they're in their final position. If it's truly minimal, 5 miles into to the life of the bike you won't even notice it.

Very nice work so far.

Greenhorn
06-07-2009, 09:47 PM
Well... I had my first (crash) test this afternoon.

No derailuers set up yet.

I made it around the block 2 times before the bike broke. The tab on which the pulley idler is mounted bent to form a 90 angle L. Chain fell off. I fell down--strained my knee. I'll have to cut it off and re-mount (the idler tab, not my knee)---thats ok becauase I noticed it needed to be farther back anyways

As for handling....man was the bike twitchy (although this was only the 3 time I have ridden one of these..the first two were 5 min test rides)

While it lasted, the ride was very fun. Going downhill scared my pants off given the twitchiness.

Also, the brakes were very "squishy." I also need to readjust the headset preload, as the handlerbars/fork flexed bigtime when braking

I'm upset it broke, but i figure if I made it around the block twice, at least its rideable. The other annoying thing is that the more i look at it now, the more I see little things are are not lined up.

Maybe another week and I will be in business.



http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/BikeBuild_4124.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/BikeBuild_4129.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/BikeBuild_4128.jpg

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww33/WI_Greenhorn/BikeBuild_4125.jpg

dakidd1
06-07-2009, 10:01 PM
Now thats one laid back ride !!!
Looks really comfortable, though... Sorry about your spill... Good luck Greenhorn,
Ron

comreich
06-07-2009, 11:41 PM
dakidd1 took the words out of my mouth. That's one laid back ride. Are you able to measure the angle on it? Looks about 30 degrees from horizontal. Once you get the drivetrain sorted out, that will be one aero ride. I may need to recline mine a bit more too :)

You will get used to how responsive the bike can be and I found some advice on BROL that's pretty good -- keep a light hand on the bars. Makes things a lot less twitchy at higher speeds.

So, good progress and congrats on the test rides.

Odd Man Out
06-08-2009, 01:44 AM
Greenhorn
I would like to suggest a modification for you. The rationale behind it is for safety. Granted the chances of something happening are probably better than 1 in a billion but...
If you look at your second picture down, it looks like if you somehow had your head slammed back or pressed back and slid sideways that the top of your backrest could do you some damage. You could cut it down a bit without any aesthetic or functional problems but it would cure the (remote) problem. I say don't give "Murphy" a chance to win.

Greenhorn
06-08-2009, 01:55 AM
Greenhorn
I would like to suggest a modification for you. The rationale behind it is for safety. Granted the chances of something happening are probably better than 1 in a billion but...
If you look at your second picture down, it looks like if you somehow had your head slammed back or pressed back and slid sideways that the top of your backrest could do you some damage. You could cut it down a bit without any aesthetic or functional problems but it would cure the (remote) problem. I say don't give "Murphy" a chance to win.

I have a seat pad I made from some HF floor foam. I am sewing a cover for it from an old homemedics back massager at the moment.

None to worry. My gord wont be chopped off

jimFPU
06-08-2009, 07:45 AM
Very laid back! What is the comfort factor on that seat? I know there is no padding right now, but beside that? I'm looking at something like that on my new build.

mkane53
06-08-2009, 08:17 AM
Very Aero! The steering on the HighRoller is pretty sensitive, but you'll get used to it. I've had mine up over 30 going downhill and never had a problem. The "squishy" brakes are probably because of the length of the cables. Mine feel soft but stop very well.


The tab on which the pulley idler is mounted bent to form a 90 angle L. Chain fell off.

I had the same problem on the power side idler on my HighRoller (the one under your seat). It's under a lot of stress as you're pedaling. I ultimately reinforced it by welding a couple of "T's" onto it (one would be enough but you don't want to cover the bolt hole). After I did that, it solved the problem entirely. Pictures below

Underseat Pulley
http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii54/mkane53/HighRoller%20Construction%20-%20Spring%202009/P1010008.jpg

Behind Seat Pulley (my chain line is a bit serpentine)
http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii54/mkane53/HighRoller%20Construction%20-%20Spring%202009/P1010009.jpg

mkane53
06-08-2009, 08:39 AM
Forgot to mention earlier ... if you do weld on the add'l support like I did, make sure you allow spacing so you can get the bolt/nut in there.

Greenhorn
06-08-2009, 08:43 AM
Very laid back! What is the comfort factor on that seat? I know there is no padding right now, but beside that? I'm looking at something like that on my new build.

super comfortable. Great for my bad low back

Greenhorn
06-08-2009, 08:45 AM
Forgot to mention earlier ... if you do weld on the add'l support like I did, make sure you allow spacing so you can get the bolt/nut in there.

Thanks. Its good to know I am not the only one with that problem. I was thinking of just using another piece of 1/8 bar to weld to the back/underside of the frame....but I like your t-brace idea

trikeman
06-08-2009, 09:38 AM
I only have the pictures you posted to go on, but just laying a ruler on the best profile shot, it looks like you have almost no trail on the bike at all. Maybe its just my eye. If that is true it might explain the twitchiness. I would say just bend the front fork arms forward a bit to give you some trail, but it doesn't look like you have enough clearance to do that with the front wheel and tire you have on it. Have you measured your trail?

Congratulations on the test ride. You certainly earned it. The bike looks great.

trikeman
06-08-2009, 09:46 AM
Looked at it again, and maybe I am wrong about that trail. Its hard to check it on the screen.

Greenhorn
06-08-2009, 09:55 AM
I only have the pictures you posted to go on, but just laying a ruler on the best profile shot, it looks like you have almost no trail on the bike at all. Maybe its just my eye. If that is true it might explain the twitchiness. I would say just bend the front fork arms forward a bit to give you some trail, but it doesn't look like you have enough clearance to do that with the front wheel and tire you have on it. Have you measured your trail?

Congratulations on the test ride. You certainly earned it. The bike looks great.

About 1 1/2 inches

John Lewis
06-08-2009, 10:01 AM
I only have the pictures you posted to go on, but just laying a ruler on the best profile shot, it looks like you have almost no trail on the bike at all. Maybe its just my eye. If that is true it might explain the twitchiness. I would say just bend the front fork arms forward a bit to give you some trail, but it doesn't look like you have enough clearance to do that with the front wheel and tire you have on it. Have you measured your trail?

Congratulations on the test ride. You certainly earned it. The bike looks great.

Wouldn't bending the forks forward decrease the trail? If I recall right I had excess trail on my TE clone about 6"and I raked the forks forward to decrease it to around 2".

jOHN LEWIS

trikeman
06-08-2009, 11:18 AM
Wouldn't bending the forks forward decrease the trail? If I recall right I had excess trail on my TE clone about 6"and I raked the forks forward to decrease it to around 2".

jOHN LEWIS

I always get confused about the exact definitions of plus and minus on trails, but since the line he just measured through the center of his head tube to the ground strikes about 1.5" ahead of the center of the wheel contact, he would increase the distance (and the trail) by bending the fork arms forward. But, since he already has 1.5" from a real measurement, I don't think it is the trail that is his problem - more like he just isn't used to the bike yet.

John Lewis
06-08-2009, 10:46 PM
I think you are right and it's a matter of getting used to the bike. 1.5" of trail should be adequate. A wider front tyre can help too and is not a bad idea at first.

If you project a line centred along the head tube to the ground and another vertically from the axle to ground the axle point on the ground should fall behind the head tube point. The further this is then the greater the trail. If you rake the fork forward then you bring the axle point closer to the head tube point so you have less trail. Rake too far and the bike may become unstable at speed. They passed a state law here years ago to make it illegal to ride a bike with a lot of rake. The kids were raking forks for the cool chopper look and there were a number of accidents. They also restricted the height and width of the handlebar.
Most bents by our legal definition miss on two points at least. Have't been called on it though.

John Lewis

Greenhorn
06-10-2009, 10:52 AM
Becuase my last idler mount bent 90 on my first ride, I decided to replace it with one of double thickness. I used a 1/8 bar before and now have two welded together for added strength. I also moved the idler mount about 4 inches backwards so I could get the same deflection but have the idler mounted closer to the frame. If I still have problems with the mount, I am going to weld another piece from the bottom of the tab to the other side of the frame to form a triangle for the mount (I hope I dont have to go that roiute as it is ugly)

For my handlebars, I decded to chop some risers and use an inverted "V" configuration.

I solved my headset problem last night. Turns out I was using the wrong size "centering ring" and my top race was not setting right on the top cup. (I ruined 2 sets of ball bearings trying to figure this out)

I still don't know what I am going to use for a return idler. The rear rerailuer from my donor bike has cheap, plastic wheels and is bent up. I tried running the chain through and got lots of resistance.

I don't own a drill press or vice, so carving up roller skate wheels is not an option. I thought about mounting two rollerblade wheels next to each other and having the return chain run between them. Anyone ever try something like this? Also, my main problem with the return side is not the height, its the width. As is the return chain rubs the front brake arm. So I am going to have to mount the return idler about 2-3 inches off the main boom.

I am also working on a seat cover made from 2 pieces of harbor freight floor mats covered by the shell from an old homemedics back massager.

Hope to have some more pics by the end of the weekend (and be able to make it more than twice around the block)

The light in the tunnel is getting brighter everyday......

John Lewis
06-10-2009, 10:02 PM
Hi Greenhorn,

Why don't you use a chain tube for the return? You can make it long enough to pass the brake and the tube touching the brake should be no problem. I have used chain tube return made from black plastic irrigation pipe on two of my builds. It works well and I haven't noticed any measurable power loss. I mount the tube with cable ties through a short piece of plastic tube. Can post pictures if it helps.

JOhn Lewis

Greenhorn
06-11-2009, 12:04 AM
Thanks for the tip---pictures would be good. I cant visualize the mounting you describe

John Lewis
06-11-2009, 09:53 AM
Thanks for the tip---pictures would be good. I cant visualize the mounting you describe

I'll post some tomorrow.

John Lewis

GregLWB
06-11-2009, 11:28 AM
GH - I changed the chainline on my HR and only the return side uses the pulley anymore. I tubed the drive side almost the full length and run it above the pulley and I tubed the front part of the return chain from the pulley almost to the the front der.

This way of doing it reduced quite a bit of drag. I bought a 50' roll of the tube for ~$7.50 at the building supply store. They sell it in the drip irrigation aisle. To straighten the tube, cut the length you want and lay it on the driveway in the sun for a while or if you have a heatgun you can carefully on low heat warm it and will only take about 5 minutes to straighten.

If you want I will take a pic and post tommorrow.

Also, on the HR I made the pulley tab with a bolt welded to a flat piece of 1/8" x 1" bar. With both chains rolling on the pulleys like in my finished HR picture it did slightly bend once and I realized that my chain was too tight. On the Mom-Ridian I used a piece of 3/4" angle, drilled a hole inserted the bolt and welded it from the backside. This allowed me to get the pulley much closer to the frame and with the 3/4" angle it is really strong.

Greg

Greenhorn
06-11-2009, 10:46 PM
Finished the beefed up idler mount. Works great. Still cant figure out where to mount the front. I cant fid a place that works for all gear combos.

When looking for a front idler, I came up with the idea of usuing two roller blade wheels next to each other. With the Abec-5 bearings, they spin very smooth. I am thinking of maybe using these for the drive side instead of the V belt pulley.


In any event. I took her out for another spin. It was a blast. No major malfunctions. Turns out the tiller steering is NOT BAD AT ALL. I learned you have to be very gentle and do most of your turning with body enlgish. I actually like it. Balancing is just learning another skill. I went around the neihborhood about 5 times. Had to stop onlybecause it was dark! Man was this fun.

This bike rides liek a fighter jet. I LOVE IT!

A bunch of the neighbors came over and took pictures and asked a bunch of questions.--that was really cool.

Still have to figure out the return pulley, hook up the gear cables, weld on the front cap, and fine tune the breaks.

trikeman
06-12-2009, 06:29 AM
GH - congratulations on a great ride. It has been a long road, but you got 'er done.

John Lewis
06-12-2009, 07:16 AM
Great to see you up and riding at last.

Here are the pictures of the chain tubes on some of my bikes.

This shows the tube and the mount made with a cable tie and a short length of flexible beverage tube.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh98/lew2au/tube.jpg

This is another view to show the "crude" mount from cord. It enables the tube to move to line up the deraileur

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh98/lew2au/tube2.jpg

This is how it mounts on the trike

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh98/lew2au/tube3.jpg

By the way, note in the first shot how the tube is flared. It is done both ends. I heat it and push the end of a plumb bob into the tube. The main thing is to have an entry and exit for the chain so it won't catch.

John Lewis