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View Full Version : Here I go again - More money then brains but building aluminum delta



E_motion
07-02-2016, 12:22 PM
It took me forever to build my Kyoto - I get an idea in my head, start it and then something pulls me away. I gave it this title as I am 51yrs old and lucky enough I could afford to go out and purchase a new factory built GreenSpeed Anura IGH but the practical side of me is screaming "are your crazy, 5000$ on something to peddle around"!! So I came to the conclusion to meet it half way and build something like it and putting money into it for higher end components - so I budgeted 2k$ but that includes some new tools and supplies as well - Aluminum spool gun for welder, tank of argon gas, bottom bracket tapping tools(plan to build more)

So back to AZ to see which design would assist in this build - I have the TimberWolf plans and I like the suspension but worry about the spring loading and during peddling - so, also looking at the LodeRunner which looks like it has a slightly higher seating position which I like.

Again, at 51, I am now all about "the practical", getting from A to B with dependability, low maintenance and in reasonable comfort(recumbent style the only way). I want something durable, not going to rust and I hate painting - thus Aluminum for the frame.
Nuvinci N360 for the rear gearing
FSA’s Patterson for front.
Samagaga HD diff to give me 2 wheel (with axles and adapters).
Samagaga hard core wheels, 24" rear and 20" front (If there is one thing I have learned from the Kyoto build was I hate building wheels - just not my thing!) - not sure how these will work out looking to give them a try because I liked the way they looked and did I mention I hate building wheels.

I have ordered the aluminum welding spool gun, the N360 and the Samagaga components but still pricing out the Patterson BB drive. Still need to settle on final over all design and order the metal and get Argon tank - practice some welds. That said, looking forward to building this and getting any input from all that are interested. I am going to put an aggressive time line on the this build - at least for me - looking to have this done by mid August to take to Port Hope TrikeFest which I have not told the wife as we will be starting our camping vacation that weekend.

Cheers, Patrick

Twinkle
07-02-2016, 01:38 PM
- so I budgeted 2k$ but that includes some new tools and supplies as well - Aluminum spool gun for welder, tank of argon gas, bottom bracket tapping tools(plan to build more)


Again, at 51, I am now all about "the practical", getting from A to B with dependability, low maintenance and in reasonable comfort(recumbent style the only way). I want something durable, not going to rust and I hate painting - thus Aluminum for the frame.
.

I have ordered the aluminum welding spool gun, the N360 and the Samagaga components but still pricing out the Patterson BB drive. Still need to settle on final over all design and order the metal and get Argon tank - practice some welds. That said, looking forward to building this and getting any input from all that are interested. I am going to put an aggressive time line on the this build - at least for me - looking to have this done by mid August to take to Port Hope TrikeFest which I have not told the wife as we will be starting our camping vacation that weekend.

Cheers, Patrick



Hope she does not read this before you tell her

regards emma

darnthedog
07-02-2016, 01:41 PM
Patrick
Sound like you have some planing to do.

If you followed George T's original Timberwolf build he had the Samagaga differential. I had recommend to use the Loderunner axle mounting as he had clearance issues using the 20 inch wheels and Samagaga ETG-C. The C allowed the use of cassettes rather than freewheel gears. But you plan to add the N360 so maybe your not going to have the sizing issues George did. However the Loderunner has a little more space to mount the N360 as a mid drive. The frame layout might make the Samagaga mounting easier as well as you can move the pillow block to accommodate it a bit easier.

But your choice. We do try to express getting a 6-pack of plans to make it a little more economical on the plans. With all of them you can mix and match to your hearts content.

I look forward to your build.

E_motion
07-02-2016, 06:35 PM
Patrick
Sound like you have some planing to do.

If you followed George T's original Timberwolf build he had the Samagaga differential. I had recommend to use the Loderunner axle mounting as he had clearance issues using the 20 inch wheels and Samagaga ETG-C. The C allowed the use of cassettes rather than freewheel gears. But you plan to add the N360 so maybe your not going to have the sizing issues George did. However the Loderunner has a little more space to mount the N360 as a mid drive. The frame layout might make the Samagaga mounting easier as well as you can move the pillow block to accommodate it a bit easier.

But your choice. We do try to express getting a 6-pack of plans to make it a little more economical on the plans. With all of them you can mix and match to your hearts content.

I look forward to your build.
Lots of good advise -- I am 80/20 for the LR -- also putting on 24's, so I should not have any clearance issues. I got a six pack last time and doubt I need more so I would just get the LR plans - not allot of money for a good set of plans and then again I may not need them - Kyoto has a lot of same build principles so I should just have to work out the rear end dimensions.
Cheers, Patrick

LongRider
07-02-2016, 07:07 PM
respectfully;
imho the samagaga is a solution that is still looking for a problem--it weighs a ton and complicates things. At most a person will put the drive wheel only 15 inches from it's normal position (either to the left or the right). The drive wheel will still have at least 1/3rd of the rider's weight on it -- assuming a lightweight rider of 150 pounds that is a hefty 50 pounds on the gravel pushing... for normal riding as I say; a solution looking for a problem...

Also, forget the Patterson and go with the Schlumpf -- no cables to deal with.

hape03
07-03-2016, 01:14 AM
Hi!

Sounds like a solid approach!

I go without differential on my quad and have so far never experienced any problems with that solution.
I pedal on rear right and have the electric assist on rear left and no side ever slips.

I do however miss the non existing suspension! Also having some visibility issues riding around in populated areas.
My next build will have higher seating and suspension, I hope, so that's my recommendation! :-D

//hp

E_motion
07-04-2016, 10:55 AM
respectfully;
imho the samagaga is a solution that is still looking for a problem--it weighs a ton and complicates things. At most a person will put the drive wheel only 15 inches from it's normal position (either to the left or the right). The drive wheel will still have at least 1/3rd of the rider's weight on it -- assuming a lightweight rider of 150 pounds that is a hefty 50 pounds on the gravel pushing... for normal riding as I say; a solution looking for a problem...

Also, forget the Patterson and go with the Schlumpf -- no cables to deal with.

I respect your opinion on the diff - but that bad boy is going in! I go off road a little and want that traction.
The Schlumpf, was my 1st choice -- too over priced - I agree with the cabling aspect but at least the Patterson is a simple set up not having to get a great angle for the derailer and all you need it is one of those old ten speed shifters
Thx for the input
Cheers, Patrick M

E_motion
07-04-2016, 10:59 AM
Hi!

Sounds like a solid approach!
I do however miss the non existing suspension! Also having some visibility issues riding around in populated areas.
My next build will have higher seating and suspension, I hope, so that's my recommendation! :-D

//hp
Now you got me thinking about suspension -- I like comfy! I need someone to confirm peddling does not create bounce with the TimberWolf set up - and I would just make a taller version of that.
Cheers, Patrick M

Twinkle
07-04-2016, 12:18 PM
Now you got me thinking about suspension -- I like comfy! I need someone to confirm peddling does not create bounce with the TimberWolf set up - and I would just make a taller version of that.
Cheers, Patrick M


Patrick

Pedal bounce is usually caused or exaggerated by the suspension spring in the wrong position , care must be taken to ensure that the spring compresses with road surface and not by chain movement .

alternatively 2" big apples or similar work well on an unsprung trike


regards emma

HHJJ
07-04-2016, 12:19 PM
Hi,

Don't know the answer to the question but I believe that A. suspension units are adjustable for stiffness and B. there are various qualities of suspension units, both of which might help in the elimination of the pedaling bounce issue.

Am likely to end up with TimberWolf type machine myself and suspension will be essential on local roads and with back condition, so I'm hoping it can be sorted.

I can't spot pedal bouncing in the vid on the plans page.
They weren't thrashing it though.

E_motion
07-04-2016, 03:41 PM
Patrick

Pedal bounce is usually caused or exaggerated by the suspension spring in the wrong position , care must be taken to ensure that the spring compresses with road surface and not by chain movement .

alternatively 2" big apples or similar work well on an unsprung trike

regards emma
Thx Emma -- I guess that is what I am asking others that have built the TimberWolf -- if there is pedal bounce on a "built to plans" TW, then that must be the case with it.
Cheers, Patrick M

E_motion
07-06-2016, 04:47 PM
The Nuvinci has arrived:
https://s25.postimg.org/owgnhp8fv/Nuvinci.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/owgnhp8fv/)
This thing feels heavy / solid -- I don't mind sacrificing the extra weight for the lower maintenance
Cheers, Patrick

E_motion
07-06-2016, 05:49 PM
I have always had a problem with mechanics and such - should I go with a long crank with the Nuvinci or a shorter crank.
Options 165mm - 170mm and 175mm
My understanding is I will get more power with the longer stroke and more speed with the shorter stroke -- yes?
I would rather have power over speed.
https://s25.postimg.org/b428m2hob/Patterson_Transmission_Crankset.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/b428m2hob/)

Thx, Patrick

HHJJ
07-06-2016, 05:57 PM
I think shorter cranks are easier on a recumbent because of the seating position which tends to bring the knees closer to the chest than on a normal bike, and is easier to spin in the lower gears, which is more necessary on a recumbent for climbing.

LongRider
07-07-2016, 12:22 AM
I have always had a problem with mechanics and such - should I go with a long crank with the Nuvinci or a shorter crank.
Options 165mm - 170mm and 175mm
My understanding is I will get more power with the longer stroke and more speed with the shorter stroke -- yes?
I would rather have power over speed.

Thx, Patrick

Go with the shorter --165mm. Just because a recumbent gives you a better way to express power to pedals, it is not necessarily a good thing. Much better to gear down and spin than to try to "power" through things -- it does damage to knees...

E_motion
07-07-2016, 06:15 AM
HHJJ and LongRider - thx, short seems to have the vote - cheers, Patrick

ken will
07-07-2016, 06:37 AM
HHJJ and LongRider - thx, short seems to have the vote - cheers, Patrick

The other side of the coin is:
If you have more fast-twitch muscle fiber than slow-twitch your foot velocity will be faster so longer pedals are better.
Also if you are taller, longer pedals are better.
Also if you want to look like you are not working as hard, higher gears and longer pedals are the way to go.

LongRider
07-07-2016, 11:51 AM
The other side of the coin is:
Also if you want to look like you are not working as hard, higher gears and longer pedals are the way to go if you want knee damage.


Fixed it for you :rockon:

ken will
07-07-2016, 05:23 PM
Fixed it for you :rockon:

I keep forgetting you old people have trouble with your knees. I have only been pushing big gears for 65 years (I started when I was 3) in another 20 or 30 years I will have to switch to baby gears! :punk:

E_motion
07-07-2016, 07:22 PM
I keep forgetting you old people have trouble with your knees. I have only been pushing big gears for 65 years (I started when I was 3) in another 20 or 30 years I will have to switch to baby gears! :punk:
Now that is what I call optimizum - Cheers, Patrick

LongRider
07-08-2016, 01:46 AM
I keep forgetting you old people have trouble with your knees. I have only been pushing big gears for 65 years (I started when I was 3) in another 20 or 30 years I will have to switch to baby gears! :punk:

Old people or young, it doesn't matter -- common sense should be common sense. Here is some info from people who know more about this than I:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/fixed-knees.html
https://learn.performancebike.com/bikes/advice/riding-tips/general-cycling-tips/real-advice-avoiding-knee-pain
http://www.bentrideronline.com/messageboard/showthread.php?t=20782
http://www.bikejournal.com/thread.asp?ThreadID=%7B8969CF38-1EB5-40B2-BF89-FE2BA52D5235%7D
http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=10927

5 pieces of info from all areas of biking. All decry mashing versus spinning. I guess with age comes wisdom -- would you not agree youngster?:mickey:

E_motion
07-09-2016, 11:41 AM
Got the Wheels Axle and diff Thurday -- Wheels look nice - hope they hold up well.
https://s25.postimg.org/6cu3fb7y3/Wheels_Alxes_and_Diff.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/6cu3fb7y3/)

Think I forgot to order something that joins the wheel adapters to the to the axles - will need to look into that, emailed them but no reply yet.
https://s25.postimg.org/o4ab7icqj/Hub_adapter_and_Axle.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/o4ab7icqj/)

Cheers, Patrick

LongRider
07-09-2016, 02:14 PM
What are the weights of those wheels?????
Inquiring/nosey minds want to know

E_motion
07-09-2016, 06:11 PM
What are the weights of those wheels?????
Inquiring/nosey minds want to know

Don't know - they feel lighter then they look. I would say they are a little heavier then a regular wheel for sure - If I can find something to weigh them I will.

E_motion
07-11-2016, 01:58 PM
Don't know - they feel lighter then they look. I would say they are a little heavier then a regular wheel for sure - If I can find something to weigh them I will.

I removed a 20 rim Alu from a old trike yesterday -- felt about the same comparing the 20 inch Samagaga wheel - one in each hand -- I know it is not an accurate measurement!

E_motion
07-23-2016, 03:25 PM
Not much new to report -- got my aluminum welder gun the week before last - away all last week on the family vacation.
This week will be focused on getting some more parts/material for the build, need to get the argon, front internal gear thingy - the more I write about what I need to do to get started the closer my deadline comes.
Also need to get the garage cleaned up so I can work in there:
https://s25.postimg.org/532904id7/20160710_111006_1.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/532904id7/)
Need to get that my dump trailer project frame out of the way, large wheel, frame standing up, it needs to be sanded down and primed so I can move it to the back yard.
Need to rework my weld table so it is movable - sell the Kyoto and other LWB bike.
I dont think I am going to make the deadline. One of my weekends I am going up for family get together for the father in laws 91 birthday party and then also helping my mother move into her apartment.

Cheers, PM

E_motion
09-11-2016, 11:46 AM
Still no big events on my end - still need to tackle more on garage clean up, decided my weld table is to massive for my future building need and I trying to sell or will dismantle. I will build something more to my new building needs - will be all aluminum this time with for corner leveling using 4 scissor jacks I purchased.
Got my Argon tank on Friday - probably a little premature on that but I was hoping to inspire myself to get things done.

I am still deciding which design I am going with - definitely still a delta - keep coming back to the TimberWolf but got thinking of suspension and how to change it to an independent. Have a look a my highly detailed/comprehensive drawing using paint and let me know if I am on to something - I know I will be adding weight but thought it might be worth it for independent suspension .
Argon

https://s25.postimg.org/3u226gq2j/20160911_113013.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/3u226gq2j/)


Independent Suspension
https://s25.postimg.org/m8clag2d7/Delta_Suspension_Idea.png (https://postimg.org/image/m8clag2d7/)

E_motion
09-22-2016, 10:31 PM
In the mean time as I am still sorting out for the new trike build, thought I would get some riding to work this fall - only 10km but a couple of nasty hills, so put on the GoldenMotor Vector - too front heavy for this trike design, makes it hard to balance/steer. Looking for a decent priced trike rear end to mode it to 3 wheels and it can be my winter beater bike. Took it out for a spin and had it going 33kph past one of those speed signs in our neighborhood.
http://s25.postimg.org/z12l3em7v/LWBw_Vector.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/z12l3em7v/)

Battery sits in backpack (BatPack) hanging of the back of the seat.
http://s25.postimg.org/dfxifsph7/Bat_Pack.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/dfxifsph7/)

Cheers,Patrick